Spyro-verse vs. Kingdom Hearts-verse

O13 Follower · Apr 01, 2014 6:02 PM

Spyro gets every villain, boss, and Protagonist they ever had in their games.
Kingdom Hearts gets every villain, boss (this includes special bosses save Sephiroth and the Ice titan, Lingering Will and everything in the Cave or Remembrance), and Protagonist they ever had in their games. (Save the Genies due to it becoming an instant stomp)
Restrictions: Heartless can't make new heartless from killing other people, Xemnas is in his base form; the moon comes out every 2 hours and lingers for 45 min. All repeated characters (characters who were either resurrected, main characters, and recurring villains) are in their most recent incarnation and also no space fleet or ship assaults seeing as how the other side has no space faring tech. all small time enemies (enemies you encounter throughout each game) gets 3000 soldiers for each faction all of said forces are comprised of the most common kind of each species. KH has 5 so 15,000 for Spyro some research needs to be done but I am sure they have more than us just by seeing they have more games than us.
Other: All people in this war have access to all powers and abilities (in Xemnas's case all powers used while in that form and his tower dragon form and all O13 members get powers shown in Cave or Remembrance and in their respective games) with each side has being shown in battles or special battles.
Field of war: The vast expanse of land from after KH but before KH: CoM.

Last edited by O13 Follower (Apr 10, 2014 2:46 PM)

Who wins? (Please Put some consideration in before you vote)

Swaffy · Apr 01, 2014 9:14 PM

Kindom Farts aint got nothin' on Spyro. Nothin'.

Flapjacks · Apr 01, 2014 9:48 PM

Well, probably Kingdom Hearts, as I've never heard of "Spryo." Is Spryo some kind of Spyro knockoff? If so, it would need to make itself much more well known to take on the Kingdom Hearts universe, as I've never heard of it.

Clock-la · Apr 01, 2014 11:47 PM

Wait...what? This hurts my small head D:

O13 Follower · Apr 02, 2014 12:04 PM

Not what I was hoping for. so few voters

Swaffy wrote:

Kindom Farts aint got nothin' on Spyro. Nothin'.

How? Explain.

Moderator: merged double posts

Last edited by Stormy (Apr 02, 2014 2:04 PM)

36IStillLikeSpyro36 · Apr 02, 2014 3:34 PM

well, i've never played Kingdom Hearts so i can't vote. i've seen a friend play it for a little while and it must have been during a pretty big lull in the action.

Latias fan · Apr 02, 2014 9:41 PM

Clock-la wrote:

Wait...what? This hurts my small head D:

Don't feel bad. That's everyones reaction to Kingdom Hearts plots after 1

O13 Follower · Apr 03, 2014 12:10 PM

Latias fan wrote:

Clock-la wrote:
Wait...what? This hurts my small head D:
Don't feel bad. That's everyones reaction to Kingdom Hearts plots after 1

Then you sir are an idiot. It isn't hard enough to follow let alone understand you just have to be smart enough to understand. Tell me how do Dragons beat Organization 13 and Kurt Zisa.

Flapjacks · Apr 03, 2014 7:13 PM

O13 Follower wrote:

Latias fan wrote:
Clock-la wrote:
Wait...what? This hurts my small head D:
Don't feel bad. That's everyones reaction to Kingdom Hearts plots after 1
Then you sir are an idiot. It isn't hard enough to follow let alone understand you just have to be smart enough to understand. Tell me how do Dragons beat Organization 13 and Kurt Zisa.

According to this fine gentleman/lady, the Kingdom Hearts universe has a sufficient lack of commas.

Stormy · Apr 03, 2014 9:13 PM

I don't know enough about Kingdom Hearts to have an opinion about this, but I've been reading this thread and what I have noticed is that Flapjacks is being way too pedantic about grammar and typos. roll Cut that out, man.

Just remember you guys don't have to reply to every thread that pops up, so if you don't have anything to say that will add to it, it's better if you don't post at all.

Flapjacks · Apr 03, 2014 10:07 PM

I only do that when what someone said was unnecessary. I don't think it was necessary for O13 to call Latias an idiot for not understanding the plot to Kingdom Hearts. It's not the simplest plot out there.

Stormy · Apr 04, 2014 3:20 AM

You are right; that was pretty rude and unnecessary. A lot of posts in this thread are. I was kind of trying to stay out of the whole thing and just felt the need to jump in for some reason when I noticed the second time that had happened. Probably should've just stayed out, didn't mean to pick any sides or anything.

Anyways... maybe it would help if we knew which Spyro we were talking about here? Classic, Shadow Legacy, TLoS...? (I still won't know because I haven't played much KH, but maybe it would help someone? hmm )

O13 Follower · Apr 04, 2014 12:34 PM

Stormy wrote:

You are right; that was pretty rude and unnecessary. A lot of posts in this thread are. I was kind of trying to stay out of the whole thing and just felt the need to jump in for some reason when I noticed the second time that had happened. Probably should've just stayed out, didn't mean to pick any sides or anything.
Anyways... maybe it would help if we knew which Spyro we were talking about here? Classic, Shadow Legacy, TLoS...? (I still won't know because I haven't played much KH, but maybe it would help someone? )

I had a bad day that day. It doesn't get me immunity from my actions this is just an explaination as for what happened when I typed that post. Now to answer your question All of the Spyro games are included in this all repeated characters (characters who were resurrected, main characters, and recurring villains) are in their most recent forms and they have access to all powers and abilities associated with each character. Still Xemnas Solos.

Last edited by O13 Follower (Apr 04, 2014 12:36 PM)

Clock-la · Apr 04, 2014 12:40 PM

O13 Follower wrote:

Latias fan wrote:
Clock-la wrote:
Wait...what? This hurts my small head D:
Don't feel bad. That's everyones reaction to Kingdom Hearts plots after 1
Then you sir are an idiot. It isn't hard enough to follow let alone understand you just have to be smart enough to understand. Tell me how do Dragons beat Organization 13 and Kurt Zisa.

Dragons have f****ing fire breath.

Swaffy · Apr 04, 2014 6:29 PM

O13 Follower wrote:

Then you sir are an idiot. It isn't hard enough to follow let alone understand you just have to be smart enough to understand. Tell me how do Dragons beat Organization 13 and Kurt Zisa.

Don't call my friends idiots, bad things might happen.

On topic, I think keyblades are really cheesy. Do they even open doors? Like, stick them in, turn them, and bam?

Last edited by Swaffy (Apr 04, 2014 6:31 PM)

Mr. John · Apr 05, 2014 12:48 AM

I love the purple dude really I do. And don't hate me for this. But Kingdom Hearts wins. I mean Spyro's fire breath and head bash plus other breaths. Can't beat what The Kingdom Hearts villains and heroes can do. So Kingdom Hearts. Sorry pals. Just my option. Once again don't hate me for it. I love Spyro too!

Last edited by Mr. John (Apr 05, 2014 12:48 AM)

Arenvir 98 · Apr 05, 2014 2:30 AM

One of the things I tried to do when I saw this thread was to go over all the boss fights in KH1 and KH2 on Youtube (Which is still an ongoing project) to get an idea of what the protaganists and main antagonists can do. Here's a basic summary of my opinion from there.

The antagonists in my opinion go straight to Spyro. No KH villian succeeds in their mission, to my knowledge. They get close, but never quite make it. However, Malefor actually succeeds for a minute or two at the end of DotD. That and the nature of the majority of KH's antogonists are focusing on a metaphysical destruction, aiming not at actual planets, but at individual souls. The keyblades are also referenced as primarily being meant to fight heartless, should I recall my KH lore correctly, which immediately gives Spyro's team an advantage. However, I'm willing to cede this advantage for the ambiguity of my knowledge. Also, most magic draws on Final Fantasy's schema of the 'Thunder, Fire, Blizzard' trinity. Malefor and TLoS Spyro, which is where I'm getting most of Spyro's military capacity from, are able to manipulate lightning, ice, and fire on a fundamental level, as well as other forces such as the other classical elements and space/time (Convexity?/Dragon Time)

Directly for protagonists, TLoS Spyro put the world back together by himself. After the Destroyer began to break it apart. The amount of kinetic energy, let alone the required concentrated mass redistribution for gravitic manipulation, to move even a small chunk of Earth out of it's proper orbit makes atomic bombs shrug in impotence. Also, the Skylanders, if extrapolating to most likely realistic capacity, is basically a crudely organized army/mercenary force, with the ability to be summoned in at exactly the right place at the right time, and swapped out to rest at will, given the Portal Master is good at his/her job. Also, for the PM's skill, I'm extrapolating to a more realistic type of military leader, something like Terrador. While Skylanders' lore does state that the player is the PM, it also is scaled to a level of decreased military capacity and bloodshed. The scaling factor, given the general balance between each skylander, is similar to the difference between the Spyros of each subseries, however, the sheer dissonance between TLoS Spyro and Skylanders Spyro is too much to be used as the lone benchmark, thus calling Cynder's inclusion as a secondary reference. Also, most attacks I've seen in KH are single target barrages, which fare poorly, even with supernatural levels of strength, against teleporters or reality warpers, Spyro himself representing the latter group. He can slow down time, though it isn't demonstrated in DotD. However, Sora, and Keyblade wielders in general, are tougher than that guy from Dragonball Z. They can take hit after hit, and Mickey can revive Sora if he goes down in KH2. They are also supernaturally agile, and able to a limited degree maneuver in midair as if modulating their local gravitational axis at will.

I know too little about Organization 13 to reserve an objective opinion. However, they are extremely skilled, each tying up at least one or two skylanders each- I'm going to remind you that a majority of Skylanders are, by lore, EXTREMELY competent, even the more psychologically questionable ones, and extrapolation to a workable comparison to TloS puts them in extremely high levels of skill and power. Given the extreme size of the Skylanders' fieldable forces at any given moment, I'm sure they can still hold O13 off. The general armies are a questionable one. For KH, it depends on which world the armies come from. The more technologically advanced worlds can field firearms in addition to the natural magic, which can easily beat the medieval technology of Spyro's primary constituents in TloS. This is where the classic games come in. From what I can tell, the dragons in original Spyro were effectively the ones who could shape magic- and to a degree, reality- to their will, simultaneously being a source for the miracle producing effect- and magic doesn't appear to have limits in Spyro. Given lore, this means Spyro can field MUCH more magic than KH, turning most forms of conflict into a curbstomp similar to the Genie problem. Gnasty only got around this by freezing the dragons in crystal, which notably left them out of the fight. The Peacekeeper force also fielded firearms such as basic cannons, partially reducing KH's advantages in terms of sheer arms. In other terms, it depends on where you're getting the army. Final Fantasy 7 is notably one of the worlds in KH, owing to Cloud's presence, among others, in KH1, and allows for a potential military curbstomp, should you be drawing from them as your army. Ultimately, Spyro's dragons are fundamentally tied to magic in the originals, and are also tied in a similar manner to the fundamental forces of nature in TloS. We have a Genie problem here. However, this problem is just a part of the world, whereas the Genies in KH are far less integral to the functions of the universe, and this battle. In other words, more points to reality warpers/shapers.

In the end, I put my points to the greatest concentration of apparent reality warpers and fatebreakers (a term I use to represent those who can naturally ignore destiny or fate directly, or through involvement with another fatebreaker) They cannot be supernaturally predicted, which throws off KH's reversal mechanic, which used like a Spider Sense to clairvoyantly evade attacks. Referring advantages belonging to Spyro's team, the fact that Spyro has a rather large degree of military style training, coupled with AOE attacks like the fury attacks from ANB and tEN and his ability to manipulate fundamental forces of nature, and finally coupling the direct lack of vulnerability most of Spyro's cast has to the Keyblade, the choice curbstomp weapon (I'm going to throw a blanket and declare they're made to destroy evil, not just Heartless, to give them a decent chance against the more ambiguous Skylanders or even reformed Cynder), turns the fight into a bare victory for Spyro's team, IMO

I would personally prefer the conflict be kept to more easily compared parameters, such as protagonists vs. protagonists. There are too many variables and possibilities to consider. There are also curbstomp scenarios easily overlooked, which start getting out of hand when considering background characters as part of the battle.

Please, point out any misunderstandings I have here, I'm not that up to date on KH. Or my villains, Malefor's the only one I'd think to be that applicable in a true combat scenario in Spyro's selection, but I may be wrong.

Last edited by Arenvir 98 (Apr 05, 2014 4:18 AM)

RangerOfIthilien · Apr 05, 2014 1:30 PM

I want to get into kingdom hearts, I really do. But I can't for the life of me get past the Hercules part of the first game

O13 Follower · Apr 05, 2014 2:24 PM

Swaffy wrote:

O13 Follower wrote:
Then you sir are an idiot. It isn't hard enough to follow let alone understand you just have to be smart enough to understand. Tell me how do Dragons beat Organization 13 and Kurt Zisa.
Don't call my friends idiots, bad things might happen.
On topic, I think keyblades are really cheesy. Do they even open doors? Like, stick them in, turn them, and bam?

First of all these cheesy blades are also capable of destroying planets which is more than everything in Spyro is capable of save maybe the destoryer actually when a keyblade destorys a planet barely anything is left like mere chuncks of it are left.

Also Clock-La the whole "Dragons have f****ing fire breath." thing is nutralized by Axel who controls it like nothing ... he can also set you on fire with a snap of his fingers.

Also magic can be canceled entirely by Kurt Zisa so magic won't be a problem. we can also generate mountains with hand movements have a walking monster factory (Vanitas).

I will try getting to other points later but for now I will stop here

RangerOfIthilien · Apr 05, 2014 2:49 PM

And here I thought kingdom hearts was just a simple Disney/Final Fantasy crossover. I guess it is pretty complicated after all, if your post has anything to say about it.

Last edited by RangerOfIthilien (Apr 05, 2014 2:50 PM)

Arenvir 98 · Apr 05, 2014 8:43 PM

O13 Follower wrote:

Swaffy wrote:
O13 Follower wrote:
Then you sir are an idiot. It isn't hard enough to follow let alone understand you just have to be smart enough to understand. Tell me how do Dragons beat Organization 13 and Kurt Zisa.
Don't call my friends idiots, bad things might happen.
On topic, I think keyblades are really cheesy. Do they even open doors? Like, stick them in, turn them, and bam?
First of all these cheesy blades are also capable of destroying planets which is more than everything in Spyro is capable of save maybe the destoryer actually when a keyblade destorys a planet barely anything is left like mere chuncks of it are left.
Also Clock-La the whole "Dragons have f****ing fire breath." thing is nutralized by Axel who controls it like nothing ... he can also set you on fire with a snap of his fingers.
Also magic can be canceled entirely by Kurt Zisa so magic won't be a problem. we can also generate mountains with hand movements have a walking monster factory (Vanitas).
I will try getting to other points later but for now I will stop here

You make a somewhat decent point on the capacity of the Keyblades as anti-terrain weapons, however, what you fail to mention how it can take multiple hits for that "planet destroyer" to even kill Heartless, for which the weapon was designed. While they are excellent tools, they as weapons fail to preform quite as admirably. At the beginning of KH1, it still took several hits to kill even a few basic Heartless. Also, the nonheartless bosses/enemies you face also take absurd numbers of hits, further discrediting the Keyblade's capacity as a weapon. I personally equate the Kingdom Key to a european longsword in terms of combat damage, while the Ultima Weapon is roughly comparable to a watered down dead Shardblade (From the Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson). To quote Wikipedia, "Shardblades are powerful swords which have the ability to cut through any non-living matter with ease. When used on living creatures, they can kill with a single cut by the blade passing through the spine. They can also render limbs useless, when they cut through them. The only known defenses against a Shardblade are Shardplate, shields called "half-shards", and another Shardblade"- The immense power of a Shardblade is owed to the fact that they explicitly sever the soul of an individual... Nasty things indeed, and pretty far ahead of anything KH can muster, but back to what we're here to compare.

The problem with the difference between Axel, as presented here, and Spyro's dragons, is that dragons control fire on a far more fundamental level- I need to check my lore, but as far as TloS is concerned, those of the fire element can even shield themselves and others within a radius from flames, Ignitus in DotD shielded Spryo and Cynder from the Belt of Flame, an inferno which is meant to kill all living beings passing through it. Sorry, but elemental control, as well as magic, goes to dragons.

On the issue of magic, you're forgetting that these universes use similar-yet-seperate concepts of magic. If you are implying that both sides draw from the same rules, the Magic Crafters world in Spyro 1 implies that dragons MAKE these rules. Thus, Kurt Zisa is out of his league. Also, on a related note, this also means the dark crystals of TloS, which drain breath energy when you enter their proximity, and also fuels the darker magics (Destroyer), are a huge problem for KH spellcasters. While you can pop an Ether to recharge, it's a continuous drain, and that limits the use of spells like Curaga, which are rather fundamental to combat medicine in KH. Hi Potions are likely the only reliable source of healing, and last time I checked, they're prohibitively expensive for anyone OTHER than Sora. In other words, it isn't commonly fielded for battle.

Spyro does have monster factories of their own- the Beast Makers.

I also recall I've dealt with a portion of some of these problems in my above post, please read it thoroughly. I clearly stated that dragons from Spyro 1, Spyro in general, and by extention Malefor, are point-blank reality warpers. Also, there are points up there I don't think were thought about that much. For example, how Skylanders potentially fits in (though they do need to be souped up to properly compare fairly)

Last edited by Arenvir 98 (Apr 05, 2014 8:51 PM)

O13 Follower · Apr 07, 2014 12:07 PM

Arenvir 98 wrote:

O13 Follower wrote:
Swaffy wrote:
Don't call my friends idiots, bad things might happen.
On topic, I think keyblades are really cheesy. Do they even open doors? Like, stick them in, turn them, and bam?
First of all these cheesy blades are also capable of destroying planets which is more than everything in Spyro is capable of save maybe the destoryer actually when a keyblade destorys a planet barely anything is left like mere chuncks of it are left.
Also Clock-La the whole "Dragons have f****ing fire breath." thing is nutralized by Axel who controls it like nothing ... he can also set you on fire with a snap of his fingers.
Also magic can be canceled entirely by Kurt Zisa so magic won't be a problem. we can also generate mountains with hand movements have a walking monster factory (Vanitas).
I will try getting to other points later but for now I will stop here
You make a somewhat decent point on the capacity of the Keyblades as anti-terrain weapons, however, what you fail to mention how it can take multiple hits for that "planet destroyer" to even kill Heartless, for which the weapon was designed. While they are excellent tools, they as weapons fail to preform quite as admirably. At the beginning of KH1, it still took several hits to kill even a few basic Heartless. Also, the nonheartless bosses/enemies you face also take absurd numbers of hits, further discrediting the Keyblade's capacity as a weapon. I personally equate the Kingdom Key to a european longsword in terms of combat damage, while the Ultima Weapon is roughly comparable to a watered down dead Shardblade (From the Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson). To quote Wikipedia, "Shardblades are powerful swords which have the ability to cut through any non-living matter with ease. When used on living creatures, they can kill with a single cut by the blade passing through the spine. They can also render limbs useless, when they cut through them. The only known defenses against a Shardblade are Shardplate, shields called "half-shards", and another Shardblade"- The immense power of a Shardblade is owed to the fact that they explicitly sever the soul of an individual... Nasty things indeed, and pretty far ahead of anything KH can muster, but back to what we're here to compare.
The problem with the difference between Axel, as presented here, and Spyro's dragons, is that dragons control fire on a far more fundamental level- I need to check my lore, but as far as TloS is concerned, those of the fire element can even shield themselves and others within a radius from flames, Ignitus in DotD shielded Spryo and Cynder from the Belt of Flame, an inferno which is meant to kill all living beings passing through it. Sorry, but elemental control, as well as magic, goes to dragons.
On the issue of magic, you're forgetting that these universes use similar-yet-seperate concepts of magic. If you are implying that both sides draw from the same rules, the Magic Crafters world in Spyro 1 implies that dragons MAKE these rules. Thus, Kurt Zisa is out of his league. Also, on a related note, this also means the dark crystals of TloS, which drain breath energy when you enter their proximity, and also fuels the darker magics (Destroyer), are a huge problem for KH spellcasters. While you can pop an Ether to recharge, it's a continuous drain, and that limits the use of spells like Curaga, which are rather fundamental to combat medicine in KH. Hi Potions are likely the only reliable source of healing, and last time I checked, they're prohibitively expensive for anyone OTHER than Sora. In other words, it isn't commonly fielded for battle.
Spyro does have monster factories of their own- the Beast Makers.
I also recall I've dealt with a portion of some of these problems in my above post, please read it thoroughly. I clearly stated that dragons from Spyro 1, Spyro in general, and by extention Malefor, are point-blank reality warpers. Also, there are points up there I don't think were thought about that much. For example, how Skylanders potentially fits in (though they do need to a be souped up to properly compare fairly)

Now, in cutscenes where Sora is fighting cannon fodder Heartless they die in one hit, bosses are much darker and stronger so of course they would take more and they are pure darkness no flesh so no spine cutting for your shardblade also separation of the soul, Keyblade does that as well, separates the heart, soul, and body from each other, also KH1, heh, Sora is impossibly strong considering his evolution. Also even if they control fire to that extreme, it doesn't matter, Axel can be hurt by fire to any degree, and Axel can command fire to a great level, great enough to dismiss that barrier with little effort and that wall of fire you mentioned, Axel creates a wall like that with no f***ing effort so they match on that. Also KH is a Multiverse, there are different worlds with entirely different laws of magic, varying laws of physics, and other such laws are different, and even have different spells if you look at the ability section of the menu which means, even with different spells each magic can coexist and cancel each other out, so the silence spell would work unless you have actual proof that shows it wouldn't. Also about our monster factory, it takes a mere negative emotion to spawn them, and Vanitas is basically pure negitive emotions and every Unversed killed returns to him and with that negative energy returned he can create stronger Unversed to replace the fallen ones.

Also, for the shardblade, it cuts through non-living matter easily, look at the second Xemnas boss fight, before Sora even reaches him he cuts through multiple (5-7) buildings at once starting at one end of the building cluster, charges at them slices them up ends up on the other side of said buildings and watched as they fell apart and all with a blunt incarnation of the blade let’s see it cut through that heck I will show a video later. Also wouldn’t dark crystals empower the creatures of darkness like Ansem a world shattering monster so he could one shot entire armies with his power, Heartless army, and Heartless Bosses (Have you even seen the Groundshaker yet) and in general their magic can recharge if you play KH2 and you can shatter them and the power of most of the characters in KH could easily shatter them or they could give them to Ansem to empower him to the point of becoming a Death God, heck it could enhance the dark magic of Master Xehanort and Vanitas. Then of course Xemnas has much further ranges with his reality bending power, as does even Xigbar then 'point-blank', also Xigbar could create a chasm with a CoD at the bottom to banish and ground troops he sees fit.

Now for some of your previous statements

First off, I liked the fact you are actually researching KH boss fights, I salute your integrity. Dragons have been killed by keyblades before so it doesn’t matter if they has no direct vulnerability to them, however you are right about Keyblades primarily being used on Heartless but they also work on Nobodies, Pirate of the Caribbean style Zombies which supposidly couldn't be killed ever, humans, and super humans like Sephiroth. Also, The plans failing means nothing because the failures in question were anticipated by Master Xehanort, also Ansem was destroying entire planets to make a path to KH with their fragments, and Xemnas was using the individual hearts to create a false KH to bend all of existance to his whim. I said most common enemies of each species so for that we have Heatless, Nobodies, Unversed, Dream and Nightmare Eaters.

Could you tell me what you mean by fundamental level? Also most of the antagonist and protagonists have hypersonic to hypersonic+ speed ranges so what does that say for you people. Also, I don’t really recall but was the world completely falling apart at the seams or was the surface of the planet ruined, consider that because if it is the first one that is very impressive, if the other than not really a good argument. If skylanders is involved then Sora and other powerful Keyblade wielders could cut them down easily. Lighting is an AOE spell and Look at all spells used in KH: 3D and look at the spells, spell powered attacks and powers used, and in other news Luxord is immune to time abilities (I have played the games and if you use a magic of the same element a O13 member uses you heal them and re was made later than KH2). and if Master Xehanort possesses his younger half he breaks out of time induced stupidity, or Master Mickey freezes him and all of his allies in a set radius with the Stopza spell (it exists it is just in KH: 3D).

“Gnasty only got around this by freezing the dragons in crystal” wait, reality warping dragons couldn't even get out of some stupid crystals. Then dragons aren`t reality warpers, true reality warpers wouldn't be stopped by such a simple method unless you are telling me the crystal actually stops the thoughts of the prisoner, if Xemnas were trapped he would A) CoD out of it and back to the fight, or B) he would just use his powers from within the crystal prison and kill everyone with lasers, and nothingness tossing, while given extra protection from the crystal. Also when is Spyro a Fate Breaker if what I remember is correct the Purple dragons are supposed to either destroy or create Malefor was a purple dragon who destroyed and Spyro re-created no fate was broken so both lived up to their destinies. Keyblades are weapons, they hurt all things, Keyblades were used in a war (if you don`t know which you know nothing about KH) the Keyblade war, fought by both good and bad people and the battle field is filled with keyblades which means both good and bad fell on that field. Reversal (I assume you mean REACTION command) is not a game mechanic believe me I have checked I will come back when I remember what that is actual called, but still it is a reaction which means how did you come to that foolish conclusion that a fatebreaker could get past that.

All villains- can erect magical barriers to keep opponents out of their way and this is a good method of picking high level opponents off one by one.

O13 member – Powers/abilities

Nobodies in general – Have enhanced strength, durability, speed, has invulnerability to non-magical attacks, don’t exist in any stretch of that word, Low level (Dusk) are capable of bending their way around attacks to avoid damage, move like snakes, move thorugh air like snake, moves as if they have no bones in entire body.

Xemnas- Very intelligent, capable of creating other realms (he did it before KH assimilation), creating pure energy weapons, intangibility, energy barriers, Dark barriers, flying, teleporting, cloning, capable of tossing multiple completely solid buildings (what does that say for dragons and other races) illusions, reality warping, life stealing powers, not above pretending to die, can even wave off death blows like nothing.

Xigbar- capable of teleporting at high speeds, bending path of bullets, ricocheting bigger blue rounds, bending the battle arena as they see fit making holes and/or warping the path of battle, can stand on the walls, ceilings, or even on air can even be upside down, and is a good shot considering he only has one eye.

Xaldin- capable of creating impenetrable barriers of wind, flying, using six lances at once to great effect, creating a dragon like form out of lances and creating a massive tornado with said form, can use and ability called “Jump” it allows hom to vanish them come down on you from above to kill you and can repeat this at least 3 times.

Vexen- is capable of using ice as a defense, and offensive, if he fights someone he gains data which can be used to create an exact replica of said opponent which can be altered as he sees fit, shield can float in front of him, the ice can be formed into a blade from the top if his shield to make a BFS, can freeze enemies solid.

Lexaeus- uses the earth as a weapon by forming stalagmites around himself then shattering them to send them flying at opponent (not much of a threat there), capable of charging his own aura to strengthen himself and decrease damage dealt to him to the point of becoming invincible to magical and physical attacks, capable of launching self into air and coming right back down colliding with the ground and creating a miniature Master Xehanort effect.

Zexion- Illusionist, he can copy abilities and power of people he witnessed, copy the form of anyone he sees fit, use those power is ways the original user never dreamed possible due to staggering intellect, can send meteors on you like nothing, can trap you in a pocket dimension in his book and kill you in it.

Saix- Very skilled adept warrior, under moonlight he becomes stronger, faster, invincible, and even his swings have an AoE effects added to them in the form of pale blue fire. Other that Saix is rather featless at this point.

Axel- capable of setting people on fire and killing them with a mere snap of his finger, summoning a circle of fire which isolates his opponents and him from everyone else unless they want to be burned to death, creates actual walls of fire, throwing chakrams which will return to him can even engulf them in flame, creating four chakrams at once for an attack called “Firetooth”.

Demyx- capable of creating geysers of water which can be used as an attack to send opponents flying or to make himself faster, can make it rain harmful bubbles, there are also bubbles which he fires out of his sitar, creating a game with water clones where if you don`t kill them all you die and you have to hit them at least three times in a row to kill them.

Luxord- Uses a time limit style fighting system, he plays games with you which if you lose you become a die or a card cutting away most of your abilities, attack power, even defense, cards are sharp enough to inflict damage, can travel using his card to go from one place to another. Has a policy of fair play meaning if he has other abilities he likely won’t use them and I can’t just make up stuff for him, can however trap groups of people in cards to keep them out of the battle .

Marluxia- His power may be plants be he is a monster. Capable of going into multiple forms, has the doom spell (a spell which can be used with either a hit counter (10 – 100 hits) or a time limit (time 10 seconds) if the time or hit counter reaches zero it is instant death. He can create a crescent beam of energy with but a single swing of his blade and can do repeatedly, create twisters capable of holding people in place for him to slice you in half, push you back with a massive current of wind. He is capable of creating dozens of lasers which head towards their targets, teleportation, cloning via illusion each illusion capable of killing you, not above pretending to die.

Larxene- Capable of creating multiple lightning strikes, highly maneuverable, very fast, capable of creating speed clones all of which can attack and hurt you, has a move where three kunai knives shoot lightning on the ground and in the air and if hit by any bolt you are held in the air by six currents of lightning which could just kill you, and can do teleport rush which is just her teleporting and trying to hit you, try and hit her she teleports away and tries again.

(Roxas kind of counts as a protagonist)- Highly skilled swordsman, physics defying abilities(running up buildings, and standing on air), creates pillars of light which can be used to just charge at you or surround him to give him protection and then come at you, can bring his blades together and they will then shoot outwards and swirl around him cutting everyone within its general range, can run on fire as shown in his fight with Axel, can shoot balls of light out of his blade which seek you out, he has two attacks which act as Instant kills, mostly slicing people into pieces.

Xion- she is a powerful fighter, her form (what people perceive) is based on an individual’s memories so they could be tricked into seeing someone they love then get killed, can become a giant monster with two keyblades which can use a twister of light to keep you in place then hit you with blades or dark lasers.

13 Seekers of Darkness (Xemnas, Saix, Xigbar not talked about) – Powers and abilities

Master Xehanort- this man is capable of ending worlds with just a simple beam of darkness fired from the tip, can possess people who are in his organization, he is capable of raising mountains with a hand movement and minimal effort, can create a massive twister with yet another hand movement with minimal effort and send it wherever he wants with minimal effort so he can fight you and still bend the twister as he sees fit. He can split people in half (light and darkness) with his keyblade and over time it kills people and before anyone says anything it leaves the light half of people in a comatose state unable to do anything and the dark half becomes a being who is naturally inclined to inflict pain on people in the name of their creator (even if they want to kill him as well).

Young Xehanort- uses two energy blades, insanely fast, capable of creating five clones all of which can attack individually, can bend the flow of time to speed himself up, slow others down, heal himself, can become invisible, use high level magic like for example barrages of darkness that will afflict you with Slow, Meteor, Raging Storm, Mega Flare, Collision Magnet, Restore Barrier, Sonic Blade, Vanitas's X-shaped Sword Beam, Marluxia's Doom and Whirlwind to the Void, can also teleport, can also leave behind Speed Echoes (after images if you will).

Ansem SoD- He has an Invincible guardian which can't be harmed by any attack or spell sent at it, the Master can toss people aside like nothing, manipulate people by using the darkness in their heart to hold them in the air or get them to do as he pleases, he can use energy as a weapon, go through multiple forms, can create balls of darkness in about a second and launch them in the next second, he can create a CoD capable of taking a massive chunk of their ground forces into the Realm of Darkness. The guardian is capable of using energy projectiles, Possessing people to help his master take them down, can go into the ground and charge out of the ground releasing a shockwave and sending people flying, charges forward with master for great damage.

Last edited by O13 Follower (Apr 07, 2014 1:10 PM)

Arenvir 98 · Apr 08, 2014 8:11 PM

Nice response there, O13. I'm going to take some time to write out the counterarguments. And finish the KHII walkthrough.
On a related note, I'd recommend not using the cutscenes to measure power, the fallacy being that if we did that, we'd be arguing whether Spyro could blast Sora before being turned into Kentucky Fried Dragon.

If nobody posts after this one, I'll edit the counters into this post under a spoiler.

O13 Follower · Apr 09, 2014 12:04 PM

Um, cutscense are cannon for KH as are reaction commands so guess what, used. also in response to your arguement about Blasting Sora, he dodges with Hypersonic+ speed or uses reflect which absorbs the imact of the attack and all enemies around him (assuming they attack of course, if they do the damage they would have done would be added on to the blast damage) would be harmed or killed by the damage of said attack which would fill Spyro with anger and guilt which would affect his combat ability.

Last edited by O13 Follower (Apr 10, 2014 6:19 PM)

Arenvir 98 · May 09, 2014 4:04 PM

I will need time to flesh out the aspects of the next few posts, wherin I will attempt to thoroughly dissect the factors in question. Of course, I'll start on the weapons

Kingdom Hearts- Keyblade

The situation of the Keyblade is a rather intriguing one, given the abilities of the particular class of weaponry. I catagorize it somewhere between "Magic weapon" and "Divine weapon", still above the higher classifications of the former, and well below the lowest tier of the latter. The reality of the weapon is that it does NOT kill the target outright. It does split the soul of the individual, according the the three parts of said individual- Heart, Mind, and Body. The function of a proper Keyblade as I have found does not destroy any aspect- in fact, it merely separates the aspect from its expression in the physical world. The heart is seperated into a Heartless, which gains physical form from the darkness, while the body lives on as a Nobody, fittingly. The mind is thoroughly tiptoed around, but since the mind is irrevocably connected to- and reliant upon- memories, as Chain of Memories indicates, I would presume that it falls into a similar state as either Terra's Lingering Will or Sora during the interlude games between KH and KH2. It does not explicitly disappear from the world, but it is incapable of sensing anything around it, barring few exceptions. Such as Sora in the opening section of Kingdom Hearts II. Any whole being incapacitated by a Keyblade is capable of being reassembled, roughly, through one of two known methods; the freeing of the Heart, Mind, and Body using a Keyblade- that is, presumably killing the person's heartless and Nobody- or finding another manner to free the same aspects. KH2 utilizes the second method, as Roxas is the last part of Sora which appears to be separate at any point during that time, and I don't recall anyone hitting Sora's Heartless OR Roxas with a Keyblade. As a spiritual weapon, it DOES incapacitate the target, yet it does not kill them entirely. Other methods, such as magic, must be used to accomplish that goal.

The use of the Keyblade as a weapon appears to be as both a blunt and a sharp force weapon. I'll note in particular that according to one of the wikis surrounding the game series "The Keyblade's signature ability is the power to open or close any lock or door, be it to a physical object, to the heart of a person or world, or to a gate or pathway between worlds. Throughout the series, Keyblades have to used to expose and seal the hearts of worlds, to open both mundane locks and paths to or through the sea between worlds, or to lock, unlock, or extract people's hearts. This is typically achieved through a bright, thin beam of light emitted from the Keyblade, but the Keyblade may also be physically thrust into a keyhole or, in the case of a person's heart, into one's chest." This confirms my earlier hypothesis that Keyblades separate the aspects of the individual they 'kill'. On a tangent, it's also why defeating Ansem and Xemnas leads to confronting Xenahort, eventually. You take out his Heartless and Nobody, and you allow him to piece himself back together.

In magic, the Keyblade is, in effect, a powerful focus or channeling point. They are easily used by even novice wielders to effects which rival experts, which is why I'm using Sora as the magic 'benchmark' for magic capacity in KH. Again, wiki and gameplay support. The former is from direct quotation- I'll get the link at the end of the post- and the latter is explaining why Sora's magic easily matches up to Donald's magic, even though Donald has much more formal training in the mystic arts.

I'll likely need to defend or revise a few points upon further argument, but for now this is my summary of a keyblade. And, here's the link I promised you. http://www.khwiki.com/Keyblade

Spyro- Early Medieval European standard weapon conventions

The weapons utilized in TLOS, at least, are always directed AT the protagonist. They appear to follow standard fantasy conventions of western European medieval craftsmanship, and since I'm going to use TLOS as the combat paradigm to scale the other entries to, that's going to be among the best there is. Mind you, there's not much better in KH, if it's just an army of Heartless and Nobodies accompanied by O13 and Sora's group. Finally, I'm going to need you to direct me and those who choose to assist me in dissecting this mess of a battle to a more thorough analysis of O13. My experience is that Axel has a Keyblade, now. Post- heart regenerating BS, by the way. Also, I'd like to point out that Donald and Goofy have no problem, despite being limited to mundane weapons, dealing with normal Heartless. It's the instakill attacks which always get them.

Much more to come, should the argument not be dropped due to incongruity of the conflicting continuities.

And yes, I'm aware of resurrecting a month old thread. I just don't like leaving stones left unturned.

Last edited by Arenvir 98 (May 09, 2014 4:06 PM)

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Spyro-verse vs. Kingdom Hearts-verse

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