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#76 Jul 16, 2011 4:37 AM
- 36IStillLikeSpyro36
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
This whole issue is wrapped around the never-ending argument whether
humans were created by God or by some random explosion in space.If we have a soul - We were created by God and are not animals
If we don't have a soul - We evolved and are animalsYou guys will never stop arguing until a mod comes in with a fire extinguisher.
I personally believe we humans are a lot higher than an animal. I believe we
have superiority over the animals, the earth, and what grows on the earth. I
believe we have souls. I believe every one of us was created by God, the
only God, and that every human is different in their own special way.I'm not arguing, that is my belief. G-Man_93 and Ty are both arguing their
different sides, a.k.a. beliefs, and it will never end.
1. my name is "36isls36", not "ty".
2. i stopped the argument literally 3 posts before yours
3. the argument's not based on creation, it's based on which parts of creation work in the argument. earthly vs spiritual
4. it does mention humans caring over the animals and Eden and whatever, doesn't it? but i just consider that more of a coexistence sort of thing than domination.
5. thank you for using the right form of "weather/whether". glad to know there are still people who mind their spelling.
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#77 Jul 16, 2011 5:14 AM
- Swaffy
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
1. my name is "36isls36", not "ty".
Sorry. I meant you instead of Ty. Sorry Ty.
2. i stopped the argument literally 3 posts before yours
The argument in general will never stop. And I'm sure the argument will happen
again between two or more of this forum's members in this forum's future.
3. the argument's not based on creation, it's based on which parts of creation work in the argument. earthly vs spiritual
It has a lot to do with religion, more than you may think.
4. it does mention humans caring over the animals and Eden and whatever, doesn't it? but i just consider that more of a coexistence sort of thing than domination.
All you did in that little paragraph is agree with me. Humans cared for the
animals, yes, but that does not mean that humans are not above animals.
What I believe: Humans have dominion over animals, like I noted
previously. But we are to still care for those animals, not cause harm. We
are allowed to kill and eat animals, but not to harm them for recreation.
5. thank you for using the right form of "weather/whether". glad to know there are still people who mind their spelling.
Thanks. I respect those who give respect. And I respect people by using
proper grammar in my posts.
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#78 Jul 16, 2011 9:19 AM
- Aceedwin
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
But the argument is still valid to me, an atheist. Without taking into account souls, and other unproven theoretical things, the argument can still be held. Therefore, it cannot be intertwined with religion as much as you seem to believe, if it can be held in a purely non-religious way. My logic is right there, isn't it? I'm pretty sure it is.
Also, hooray for proper grammar use and the respect it bestows upon readers.
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#79 Jul 16, 2011 3:30 PM
- Neotyguy40
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
36IStillLikeSpyro36 wrote:1. my name is "36isls36", not "ty".
Sorry. I meant you instead of Ty. Sorry Ty.
Nice to see it is just instinct for people to group me into religious debates...
BTW, my name is not Ty, nor is it Mr. Anderson.
36IStillLikeSpyro36 wrote:3. the argument's not based on creation, it's based on which parts of creation work in the argument. earthly vs spiritual
It has a lot to do with religion, more than you may think.
You should watch Spirit Science. It is hilariously stupid.
36IStillLikeSpyro36 wrote:4. it does mention humans caring over the animals and Eden and whatever, doesn't it? but i just consider that more of a coexistence sort of thing than domination.
[color=blue]All you did in that little paragraph is agree with me. Humans cared for the
animals, yes, but that does not mean that humans are not above animals.
Too much time on Reddit:
*Swear word
But the argument is still valid to me, an atheist. Without taking into account souls, and other unproven theoretical things, the argument can still be held. Therefore, it cannot be intertwined with religion as much as you seem to believe, if it can be held in a purely non-religious way. My logic is right there, isn't it? I'm pretty sure it is.
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#80 Jul 16, 2011 4:51 PM
- Stormy
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
Alright, I don't care if you talk about religion on this forum anymore (note that I can't speak for the other moderators, however), but you all need to at least stay on topic. The flying spaghetti monster is not on topic.
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#81 Jul 16, 2011 5:11 PM
- Clock-la
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
The flying spaghetti monster is not on topic.
I never in my life imaged you of all mods to have to say that XD
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#82 Jul 16, 2011 5:19 PM
- Neotyguy40
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
Alright, I don't care if you talk about religion on this forum anymore
Less than 3... Less than 3...
<3
Okay, fine. I am okay with sharing my view here:
I personally believe that the only thing that gives us superiority over animals is our mind. Not any spiritual stuff. However, that isn't the only thing that gives us advantage:
1. We have thumbs and sensitive hands. We can use tools much better than other animals can. We can grasp objects very easily, and because our hands have so many nerves in them, we can very easily feel and identify what an object is. Not to mention our cerebellum is much better than other animals. We can control ourselves a lot better.
2. Our body is made for constitution. Unlike other animals, we can run for very long periods of time, stay awake during more hours of the day, and survive a wider range of environments than other animals. Our bodies can both store fat and get rid of it a lot easier than other animals (for hot and cold climates), we have more sweat glands, and we have a sever lack of hair. We can survive in all but the most extreme areas on Earth. And that is just considering without all our technology we created. Due to this, we can adapt very rapidly to changes in the environment, while other animals must follow the law of evolution to adapt.
3. We can communicate much better than other animals. We use many complex languages. However, other animals (other than some whales), use either pheromones, small noises, or taste to communicate to each other (some are even stranger). Not to say we don't also have pheromones, and we can sometimes communicate our emotions through clicks or grunts (such as "Hmph" or "Tch!"). However, our dominance over animals only started when we created our complex languages.
Take away any one of these three things, and we would not be able to keep our dominance over animals. Some could argue that technology from the past 100 years or so could solve any of these problems if they were taken away, but go back 6,000 years when the Bible says the Earth was made, and you will see that we would have definitely gone extinct.
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#83 Jul 16, 2011 5:47 PM
- Stormy
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
Just don't make me regret saying that; I don't want this forum to turn into one where every thread becomes a religious debate complete with personal insults and members refusing to listen to what anyone else has to say. And again, any other mod could still come in here right now and tell you all to stop and it would still be against the rules. I'm just saying I'm not going to do anything about you all talking about it. Also, (correct me if I'm wrong, but don't let this become the new topic of this thread) I don't think the Bible actually says anything about the age of the Earth or when exactly it was created.
So back on topic, while I do have a religion, I don't think it really relates to whether or not humans are superior to animals, and I would most likely argue something like what you just presented if it came up. Do you believe that human superiority over animals makes these keychains (or the videos posted a few pages back) acceptable?
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#84 Jul 16, 2011 11:36 PM
- Swaffy
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
She's right. The Bible says nothing about the age of the earth. People can
only guess at it by putting a bunch of puzzle pieces together. That requires
taking note of the ages of the people in the Bible and when they had kids,
and also the occasional date that shows up.
Quite a few Bible-studiers have attempted to find out exactly how old the
earth is, and the closest answer they came up with is "somewhere around
6,000 years." So, because there is currently no better explanation to the
question, I use "somewhere around 6,000 years old" as my answer.
No one, regardless of their belief, truly knows the age of this planet or any
other piece of matter that exists. We can only take guesses, unfortunately.
Even if your belief is wrapped around macroevolution, there is no way to tell
the actual age of the earth. I guess it's something that us humans were
never meant to have knowledge of. Some times I wish we naturally knew
that answer, because I don't like that we all (the different religions of around
the world) argue over it.
That's my perspective.
Sorry, Stormy, for wandering off from the main topic. Maybe if there can be
some sort of thread or section for this kind of topic? Maybe it'd be safer if
there isn't one.
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#85 Jul 17, 2011 12:41 AM
- Stormy
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
A section for more serious threads was suggested a while back, and a lot of people supported it, but unfortunately SR didn't, and since he's the only one who can add sections, it was never made.
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#86 Jul 17, 2011 1:14 AM
- Latias fan
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
A section for more serious threads was suggested a while back, and a lot of people supported it, but unfortunately SR didn't, and since he's the only one who can add sections, it was never made.
For the best. I hate religious discussion on the internet.
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#87 Jul 17, 2011 4:49 AM
- Neotyguy40
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
She's right. The Bible says nothing about the age of the earth. People can
only guess at it by putting a bunch of puzzle pieces together. That requires
taking note of the ages of the people in the Bible and when they had kids,
and also the occasional date that shows up.
I actually originally thought the Bible said around 15,000 years ago. Then I was told by some people that is was 6,000 years ago. I guess I was pretty off.
Quite a few Bible-studiers have attempted to find out exactly how old the
earth is, and the closest answer they came up with is "somewhere around
6,000 years." So, because there is currently no better explanation to the
question, I use "somewhere around 6,000 years old" as my answer.
Is there any other reason you believe it is 6,000 years old? This, along with evolution, is the biggest thing that I don't understand the reason is for.
No one, regardless of their belief, truly knows the age of this planet or any
other piece of matter that exists.
Actually, there is massive amounts of proof that the Earth is just over 4.5 billion years old. I've so far seen the proof in carbon dating, potassium dating, and uranium-lead dating. Plus, because the Sun was being formed the same time as the planets (protoplanetary disk), it is also supported by the proof of the sun being over 4.5 billion years old
We can only take guesses, unfortunately.
No. The scientific process is:
Question something.
Make a hypothesis. <- This is the point where you stop if you "only take guesses." (i.e. where most of religion leaves off)
Experiment
Analyze
Result <- Will always result in a theory or law.
Guessing is not the result of the scientific process. Guessing, in this context, is to assume a fact or result WITHOUT any sufficient information. The scientific process results in creating a theory or discovering a natural law by using a hypothesis, which is an educated guess. Nothing should ever be left at a guess.
Even if your belief is wrapped around macroevolution, there is no way to tell
the actual age of the earth. I guess it's something that us humans were
never meant to have knowledge of. Some times I wish we naturally knew
that answer, because I don't like that we all (the different religions of around
the world) argue over it.
Atheism is not a religion or a belief. It is the rejection of deities, supernatural, magic, and other related things. This is the only thing it is wrapped around, not macroevolution at all.
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#88 Jul 17, 2011 9:36 AM
- Clock-la
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
so the conclution is.
making keychains from animals is wrong.
and thay all lived happily ever affter.
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#89 Jul 17, 2011 2:26 PM
- BlackTerriermon
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
That's just so wrong. D: Poor little things. T^T
SpyroGirl101 wrote:*sigh* People are just so selfish! They'd do anything to make a buck, including torture and starve poor animals! If I were there, I'd steal the dumb contraptions so they couldn't make a profit, get the critters out of there, and make sure they got a proper home! The article says the person selling them claims the water has "oxygen and nutrients" bull crap!
Yeah yeah whatever but where can i go to buy one? I need a chain for my key.
If Alien's invaded, shrunk you, put you in a little bag, sold you as a keychain, would you be happy? -___-
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#90 Jul 17, 2011 2:41 PM
- Neotyguy40
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
That's just so wrong. D: Poor little things. T^T
Latias fan wrote:SpyroGirl101 wrote:*sigh* People are just so selfish! They'd do anything to make a buck, including torture and starve poor animals! If I were there, I'd steal the dumb contraptions so they couldn't make a profit, get the critters out of there, and make sure they got a proper home! The article says the person selling them claims the water has "oxygen and nutrients" bull crap!
Yeah yeah whatever but where can i go to buy one? I need a chain for my key.
If Alien's invaded, shrunk you, put you in a little bag, sold you as a keychain, would you be happy? -___-
If aliens invaded, I would be the most happiest person in the world. If I was shrunk down? I would be even more happier!
The keychain part may not be so cool, but a 2:1 ratio isn't too bad.
By the way, he is just trolling.
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#91 Jul 17, 2011 4:25 PM
- G-Man_93
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
Actually, there is massive amounts of proof that the Earth is just over 4.5 billion years old. I've so far seen the proof in carbon dating, potassium dating, and uranium-lead dating. Plus, because the Sun was being formed the same time as the planets (proto-planetary disk), it is also supported by the proof of the sun being over 4.5 billion years old
This is true indeed! Even as a Christian myself, I will not argue the evidence presented with things such as Carbon dating and Uranium-lead dating. Sure the Bible says that Earth was created in 7 days, but if you look hard enough, you'll notice the same observation as Swaffy noticed: The Bible says nothing of how old the Earth really is. The Bible also mentions that God doesn't share the same perceptions on time as we do. A hundred or a thousand years in our time maybe mere minutes or hours in God's perception of time. Our value of time has little meaning to God, so that still leaves the space very wide open for us to study our Earth and make proper scientific studies on the age of the Earth. So 7 days in the Bible could very well be the 4.6 billion years of age by our perceptions of observation of Carbon and Uranium-lead dating amongst others!:)
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#92 Jul 17, 2011 6:13 PM
- ontels
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
I was going to follow this argument but it's to long and complicated so let me just see how the side I care about its doing, do we think torturing animals is bad?
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#93 Jul 17, 2011 7:07 PM
- Aceedwin
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
Without taking into account the seven days, the bible still basically claims that Adam, the first human being, came into being circa 4000 BC. There's evidence against that, perhaps most obviously the large civilisations that rose before that point. Just sayin'.
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#94 Jul 17, 2011 7:48 PM
- Neotyguy40
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
Without taking into account the seven days, the bible still basically claims that Adam, the first human being, came into being circa 4000 BC. There's evidence against that, perhaps most obviously the large civilisations that rose before that point. Just sayin'.
For example, Athens is thought to have been founded at around 6,000-10,000 BCE. Argos had a complete written history since 5,000 BCE too (meaning it was very likely it lasted a lot longer beforehand. Jericho is thought to have been around since 9,000 BCE too.
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#95 Jul 17, 2011 7:56 PM
- Clock-la
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
Argos? the shop? WHATS THIS ARGUMENT ABOUT NOW SHOPS OR EARTH OR ANIMALS!!
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#96 Jul 17, 2011 8:27 PM
- G-Man_93
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
Without taking into account the seven days, the bible still basically claims that Adam, the first human being, came into being circa 4000 BC. There's evidence against that, perhaps most obviously the large civilizations that rose before that point. Just sayin'.
A slight confusion with that. While it may seem that Adam and Eve were created in 4000 BC, there is an oft misunderstanding with this. The writings of the Bible began in 4000 BC, but again, nothing is revealed about how long ago Adam and Eve were created. It very well could've been longer than the books of the Bible actually existed, which could actually make sense. The Bible is only a testament and chronology leading up and into the values that Christians live by and the story of Jesus Christ and so on and so forth.
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#97 Jul 17, 2011 9:15 PM
- Latias fan
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
Argos? the shop? WHATS THIS ARGUMENT ABOUT NOW SHOPS OR EARTH OR ANIMALS!!
I think it's about religion now.
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#98 Jul 17, 2011 9:16 PM
- Clock-la
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
Clock-la wrote:Argos? the shop? WHATS THIS ARGUMENT ABOUT NOW SHOPS OR EARTH OR ANIMALS!!
I think it's about religion now.
its getting dull in this toopic, im going to spam its just not fair anymore!
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#99 Jul 17, 2011 9:25 PM
- bmah
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
I've read the whole thread, and here are my two cents.
On the topic of live animals in keychains: although I disagree with this clever marketing strategy, I'm not going to react very strongly to it.
On the topic of a human's worth: people here have been using human's superiority in terms of skills as the reason why they're above other animals. My take is that a human's life is far more valuable in my eyes because I'd rather save/contribute to my own race, simple as that. Has nothing to do with superior skills over others; just save your own kind, you know? I've had vegans debate me over this, but the majority of people will have their moral compasses swaying in that general direction. In a similar light, vegans choose to avoid meats as a statement to save cows. Most people however will view cows as food. Utility first.
I was going to follow this argument but it's to long and complicated so let me just see how the side I care about its doing, do we think torturing animals is bad?
Define torture first. Also, this is China, so what's culturally acceptable is different than Western views. On the rare occasion, I still eat shark fin soup myself. Yum!
morals that not only are ingrained into our minds from birth, but because its also part of the basic survival instinct that all animals, even humans, share.
No, morals are definitions that we ourselves have constructed. You aren't "born" with it. They're unspoken rules in society about what is "acceptable"/"unacceptable".
*sigh* it's okay, nobody really does, so it seems. i tried to get this same basic idea across on another site and got 2 out of maybe 10 to actually see what i was getting at.
Maybe it's because it's an opinion, and you are trying to make it off as fact? Where the 2 persons are those that agreed with you, in general. I see what you are trying to get at, but I simply must disagree.
Btw, there's a lot of ad hominem here guys. You are NOT going anywhere by debating ad hominem. If you want to make a point, make sure your argument follows without any equivocation whatsoever.
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#100 Jul 17, 2011 10:51 PM
- ontels
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Re: Live Creatures Sold as Keychains
ontels wrote:I was going to follow this argument but it's to long and complicated so let me just see how the side I care about its doing, do we think torturing animals is bad?
Define torture first. Also, this is China, so what's culturally acceptable is different than Western views. On the rare occasion, I still eat shark fin soup myself. Yum!
Torture: Purposely inflicting excessive pain on an individual.
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