Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

Zekira Drake · Apr 18, 2010 4:59 PM

Haven't been reading the thread, but is anyone discussing Pokémon Black and White already here?

bmah · Apr 18, 2010 5:14 PM

I mentioned it, but there's not a whole lot to discuss other than speculation. We'll need to wait for CoroCoro to release more news.

Zekira Drake · Apr 18, 2010 5:16 PM

There's... been a lot of news lately, actually; even a minor footage orz: http://www.filb.de/1294

Also while the thread's here, anyone else play competitive Pokémon here?

Stormy · Apr 18, 2010 5:39 PM

I kind of do.... Barely any of the people I battle ever know the competitive play rules, though.

I set up a battle with Infamouz from #spyrochat once. He didn't know about the Ubers rule, so my team of OUs didn't stand a chance. XD

bmah · Apr 18, 2010 5:53 PM

Do you happen to go to Smogon a lot Zekira?

*ps. unfortunately, that footage doesn't really show much, for now

A Guy · Apr 18, 2010 6:05 PM

Also while the thread's here, anyone else play competitive Pokémon here?

I don't have access to Wi-Fi, but my school and my neighborhood has a large Pokémon community. I'm trying to make a good BL-tier team.

Zekira Drake · Apr 18, 2010 6:08 PM

Technically, the BL-tier doesn't really exist much anymore... I think it only contains 7 Pokémon at the moment or something. Tiers switched and switched in the favor of UU as HGSS appeared, so consult Smogon's new tier list for that.

I usually do battles on Smogon's Shoddy server, but I still have my DS in tact for WFC battles. Plus, RNG abuse = big_smile

A Guy · Apr 18, 2010 6:10 PM

God *bleep* it, haven't looked at the tier list for a while... my dream, RUINED!

Back to the drawing board...

The Mad Thatter · Apr 18, 2010 6:16 PM

People are here? yikes

Stormy · Apr 18, 2010 6:22 PM

I was surprised to find out that a lot of people at my school actually play the new Pokemon games. A group of people from one of my classes all exchanged friend codes on Facebook.

Like this comic:

▼Hidden text

But back to the tiers thing, all my EVed ones OU when I first trained them, but I wouldn't be surprised if they've changed by now.

A Guy · Apr 18, 2010 8:36 PM

That reminds me, I really don't see why Wobbuffet is in the uber tier. That's why you bring something that knows Toxic, Taunt (I'm pretty sure that Taunt stops Counter or Mirror Coat), or a Dusknoir with Shadow Punch.

That reminds me, about the ban on "hax". Moves like Aerial Ace exist for a reason.

Dragonstar · Apr 18, 2010 9:33 PM

I think in Official Tournaments, Fear Rattatas and I believe sometimes Wobuffet are banned. yikes

Edit: Against Sabrina in HG, my lvl 30 Hippopotas managed to beat a lvl 53 Wobuffet without losing any HP. XD

Neotyguy40 · Apr 18, 2010 10:13 PM

I have a question.

Is SS/HG worth buying? I mean, I've already played Gold and Silver, I would never use the Pokéwalker, and I am curious to know how everyone else likes it.

I am 100% buying Pokémon white though, no doubt about that.

Zekira Drake · Apr 19, 2010 9:28 AM

That reminds me, I really don't see why Wobbuffet is in the uber tier. That's why you bring something that knows Toxic, Taunt (I'm pretty sure that Taunt stops Counter or Mirror Coat), or a Dusknoir with Shadow Punch.
That reminds me, about the ban on "hax". Moves like Aerial Ace exist for a reason.

1.) Nope, Taunt doesn't stop Counter or Mirror Coat since both are considered attacks. Dusknoir can't OHKO Wobbuffet with Shadow Punch.
2.) Yeah, so try and use Aerial Ace or Magical Leaf or Magnet Bomb, etc. on a Probopass with +6 Evasion. Go ahead and see if you can actually KO it with those moves alone. (let us be reminded that a Probopass can survive an Earth Power coming from Celebi) Seriously a lot of Pokémon from the OU Tier already forces 'oh god you must have this certain Pokémon' (but not as bad as having Garchomp back in the day) syndrome, lest it be annoying that even the moves have to be forced as well. Plus, there are already those inevitable hax factors such as Freeze, Criticals, and secondary effects, and those are quite enough to break the game already. Competitive Pokémon, no matter how much interesting it looks like, is actually all about the calculations involved in it.

A Guy · Apr 19, 2010 4:45 PM

1. Dusknoir is immune to Counter. It can learn Mean Look, to trap Wobbuffet.
2. These tactics can backfire - I've KOed the very Probopass you've mentioned (except with +4 evade) with two successful hits in a row before (My team does abuse the hell out of the focus sash, though, just so you know). Besides, you bring a hazer or a phazer for this kind of stuff. Anyways, if your opponent survives long enough to get +6 evasion or to baton pass it, then you're probably the kind of person that would would have three members of your party frozen by Ice Beam in a row (happened to me before, I cried...)

Zekira Drake · Apr 19, 2010 5:06 PM

A Guy wrote:

1. Dusknoir is immune to Counter. It can learn Mean Look, to trap Wobbuffet.

Oh great, now I remember one of the worst experiences I've had with this. As I ML'd a Wobbuffet, it Encored me so I was forced to Mean Look. Then after that he Tickled me 3 times, reducing my Atk to -6. After that Shadow Punch's damage after the Encore ended was neglected by Leftovers. He just stalled out my moves and because of the enormous amount of PP that Wobbuffet's moves has, I lost the Struggle war. He was smart enough not to use Encore again as Encore'd moves don't use PP, so... there.

Don't forget that Wobbuffet also has Safeguard and Tickle as its last option. Basically, the Wobbuffet user will just choose what he wants to completely block out.

So far the only practical proper OU counter to Wobbuffet is Tyranitar. Tyranitar can Taunt Wobbuffet and lock it to Mirror Coat, while Tyranitar can spam Dark Pulse and not be harmed by it, but basically that's pretty much as far as it can go.

The fact that Wobbuffet's counters are both too specific and minimal already qualifies it for Uber, much like Garchomp really, where back when it was in OU, only Cloyster could actually effectively break the Yache set without relying on another teammate.

I've been in competitive battling for 5 years now and encountered the era of RSE competitive battling. Back when tiers were being decided, Wobbuffet was not-hesitatingly put immediately in Ubers alongside Mewtwo, Mew, Lugia, and Rayquaza. The other ubers were decided way later.

The only thing that prevents Wobbuffet from being a complete god among Pokémon is its lack of a recovery move, which can be rectified by surrounding it with Wish support. Back when it was in the Limbo tier, people abundantly paired it along with Jirachi, which also can actually take care of Wobbuffet's counters, which means that it was an almost-perfect team with only those 2 already. Well, I did get the opportunity to break such a combo, but I ended up getting stuck against a bulky Gyarados with no counters for it.

Setting aside all the negativity I've spurted out, I've actually had the satisfaction of completely foiling a Wobbuffet setup. When I play Ubers RSE, I always have one Pokémon that one would laugh at when they see it there: Trapinch. I use Trapinch as my gimmicky but effective counter to Deoxys-A, which back then was a really huge problem. The previous turn was a double-KO with my Tyranitar getting killed by a Kyogre's attack as it also get KO'd by Sand Stream. The next turn, I switched in Trapinch as opponent switched in Wobbuffet (...technically this doesn't mean Trapinch is a counter since I was able to get it in before Wobbuffet). Normally what a Trapinch would do is Earthquake, and would usually have a Choice Band. But as a lulz, I actually put Toxic on my Trapinch. As I cast Toxic, Wobbuffet mistakenly used Counter. And since we're passively both trapped and the Wobbuffet didn't have time to use Safeguard, this was the actually only time I was able to KO a Wobbuffet without killing more than 3 of my team first.

Also, do note that if the player with Wobbuffet is actually the one with the initiative to take it out, 'counters' wouldn't really exist anymore. By definition, a proper counter must be able to switch in against whatever it is they are trying to counter. As mentioned, Wobbuffet's ability prevents the opponent from switching if they lack the moves Baton Pass or U-turn or aren't holding a Shed Shell, which means it essentially has no real counters.

Besides, you bring a hazer or a phazer for this kind of stuff.

Haze can work, yes, but again I say it's like saying 'oh god put a hazer on your team 'cuz you can't live without it', which kinda breaks the game yet again. Phazers won't exactly work since those moves only have 100% accuracy, and again adds to the luck-based part of the game, which as said is a part of why the game is naturally broken

A Guy · Apr 19, 2010 9:01 PM

Wobbuffet is slow, using Toxic right off the bat would poison it before it got a chance to do anything. Wobbuffet needs both Counter and Mirror Coat usually, so you have to pick either Tickle/Encore, Encore/Safeguard, or Tickle/Safeguard. The Tickle/Encore setup that defeated you wouldn't have Safeguard at all unless your opponent was sacrificing Counter/Mirror Coat for it - it would've gone down with Toxic, since Wobbuffet would be trapped. It is powerful, but hardly invincible - you just need the right setup to take it down.

As for the second part, those things aren't necessities, just as hax moves aren't necessities. But rather than think of balancing a team for all situations, people seem to just choose to narrow things down.

SapphireSheep · Apr 19, 2010 10:34 PM

Neotyguy40 wrote:

I have a question.
Is SS/HG worth buying? I mean, I've already played Gold and Silver, I would never use the Pokéwalker, and I am curious to know how everyone else likes it.
I am 100% buying Pokémon white though, no doubt about that.

for me personally I think it's worth it. and I played the original Gold and Silver too. but I suppose it would be best to look on serebii.net to see if you really want it or not.

Zekira Drake · Apr 20, 2010 1:12 AM

using Toxic right off the bat

Which has a really low chance of happening, if you'll notice.

As for the second part, those things aren't necessities, just as hax moves aren't necessities.

I agree with the part with them not being necessities, but as soon as they do get into play, it kinda breaks the game already, unlike the other non-hax moves where they don't actually break the game even if you don't have a specific counter for it. Almost all of my teams have no counter to electric-type moves, but I still pretty much get out of tight spots such as Electivire and Gengar pretty well.

A Guy · Apr 20, 2010 10:57 AM

Which has a really low chance of happening, if you'll notice.

By that, you mean? Anyways, a Wobbuffet that's badly poisoned and is up against something with non-attacking moves pretty much has to switch out (well, they can use Tickle, but...)

I agree with the part with them not being necessities, but as soon as they do get into play, it kinda breaks the game already.

Breaks the game in what sense?

Apoc · Apr 20, 2010 7:32 PM

I used to be obsessed with Pokemon but I'm over them now. The anime annoyed me to no end.

Zekira Drake · Apr 21, 2010 6:47 PM

By that, you mean?

Example, you have a LO Ho-oh out right now. Due to residual damage you decide to Roost. But then all of a sudden opponent switches in Wobbuffet. GG Ho-oh.

Even in Ubers, Wobbuffet is a really insane problem, and usually teams will lose at least one Pokémon to it even if they DO expect it.

Breaks the game in what sense?

The fact that you're playing on even more chance already makes it broken

A Guy · Apr 21, 2010 8:19 PM

Even in Ubers, Wobbuffet is a really insane problem, and usually teams will lose at least one Pokémon to it even if they DO expect it.

Much like I can often bring down several Pokémon with a Swords Danced, Baton Passed Infernape even if my opponent did expect it? Of course, unless they use Spikes, Toxic Spikes, or Stealth Rock, which are easy to counter with Rapid Spin, but then, Toxic is just as common as these things, if not more so.

The fact that you're playing on even more chance already makes it broken

That's what I was asking. How?

Apoc · Apr 22, 2010 12:46 AM

I stopped playing near the end of Ruby

Erza · Apr 22, 2010 5:13 AM

^ Ruby wasnt too great, but it was my first Pokemon game that I owned.
It's still really special to me. C:

#51 Apr 18, 2010 4:59 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#52 Apr 18, 2010 5:14 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#53 Apr 18, 2010 5:16 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#54 Apr 18, 2010 5:39 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#55 Apr 18, 2010 5:53 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#56 Apr 18, 2010 6:05 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#57 Apr 18, 2010 6:08 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#58 Apr 18, 2010 6:10 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#59 Apr 18, 2010 6:16 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#60 Apr 18, 2010 6:22 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#61 Apr 18, 2010 8:36 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#62 Apr 18, 2010 9:33 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#63 Apr 18, 2010 10:13 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#64 Apr 19, 2010 9:28 AM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#65 Apr 19, 2010 4:45 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#66 Apr 19, 2010 5:06 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#67 Apr 19, 2010 9:01 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#68 Apr 19, 2010 10:34 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#69 Apr 20, 2010 1:12 AM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#70 Apr 20, 2010 10:57 AM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#71 Apr 20, 2010 7:32 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#72 Apr 21, 2010 6:47 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#73 Apr 21, 2010 8:19 PM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#74 Apr 22, 2010 12:46 AM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

#75 Apr 22, 2010 5:13 AM

Re: Pokémon Thread (anyone who hates it stay out)

Board footer