Best of both worlds...

Mew · Dec 03, 2008 5:39 AM

Well... decided to go ahead and post my opinion on how the serie should go from here.

First of all, my personal view on what was done right and what went wrong with the LoS trilogy.

As hard as it is, the original concept was starting to grow stale and the character derailment in the last few games (Shadow Legacy...) was starting to make a dent in Spyro's pedigree as a viable setting.

The LoS reboot was an opportunity to return to the basics: just Spyro and Sparx. It re-imagined the world and replaced the old excuse plot with something that was actually worth paying attention to. Likewise, Spyro's arrogance, inflated to the point of making him near-unbearable by the end of the classic serie, was toned down as he was made into a more innocent, idealistic character. Sparx was also given a voice and despite losing the health meter function, get a sidekick role.

The battle system was improved, making enemy encounters much more involved and Gems have a direct effect on Spyro's stats rather than just pump up a counter. References to the old games via subtle details were many ; Spyro's model, in-game, is shockingly close to his PS1 version, enemies stop to point and laugh at you (even the bosses) like they used to in the PS1 days, and veterans might notice the re-use of character and even, at times, location names.

The LoS serie could have been the revival Spyro needed... if it wasn't from a couple mistakes that are very significant.

First of all, at the exception of the third LoS game, there is a serious lack of exploration. Considering Spyro's premise and overall abilities (exploring surreal worlds, beating up a bajillion baddies on the way), the lack of any places to explore really hurts.

One point is also that although the plot is genuinely better, the games are so darn short that barely anyone save maybe Spyro get decent exposure.

The old games had silly plots that bordered on excuse-type but the games were fairly long, allowing for plenty of character development and funny development.

By comparison, LoS has a much thicker plot but you're thrown through each locale so stupidly fast that you never get to know the characters or get any sizeable amount of lines or anything.

The new games also do away with game overs and death penalties. This contribute to the loss of challenge, removing the need for effort. Sure, the old games weren't terribly difficult... but the threat of failure was real in those at least.

Various nitpicks could also be thrown at the new games.

So now that we have all of this... what could be done in retrospective for the next Spyro game to be worthy of the Spyro pedigree?

First of all, one thing that A New Beginning and The Eternal Night did well was their references to the old games. Although the details might seem minor, I found them to be very nice touches and I sorely missed them in DotD. So having them would be a good start.

Now, another thing would be limiting the flight from DotD. Although flight was a good idea, it was poorly implemented leading to broken gameplay ; unlimited flight activated any time is NEVER a good idea, especially when it's as automatic and forgiving as in DotD, making all of the platforming worthless (which is bad, since the Spyro serie is about platforming).

One thing that DotD did well was bring back exploration. I'd like to see them expend on it though ; make the levels larger, longer, and add extra objectives (maybe sub-quests and sub-plots).

An important point would also making the games longer ; 8-10 hours is really cheap considering how long the older Spyro games were and with the new improved plotline and its potential, I refuse to believe that they couldn't stretch through a few extra hours. This would both give more gameplay and more potential for exposing the characters and developing the setting as a whole.

Finally, do away with infinite lives ; either have Spyro have only one life or have a limited number of lives. This would give incentives to actually conserve health and give meaning to the presence of save points and checkpoints.

As for the battle system... keep it. This is one of the things that the new Spyro setting does well. The system is actually pretty interesting and well-done. The reason it felt repetitive in ANB was mostly due to the lack of platforming and exploration, bringing forth monotony. TEN (which feature platforming) and DotD (which has exploration) doesn't suffer from this problem nearly as much.

Basically, that's the basics to me: keep the battle system but make it longer, remove infinite flight, more exploration, and limited lives.

There are other things that could be added but in my opinion, the above are the main points that would allow for the new Spyro game, when it is released to shine.

The best of both worlds... the improved combat and plot of the LoS serie but the longer gameplay, better character exposure, and exploration of the old games. A game that would honor its roots while still separating itself neatly from them.

That's my view on the issue.

ratchet · Dec 03, 2008 10:39 AM

Most people who suggest Blending the worlds put something like this:
TLOs Story, cast characters, music, epic feel, dark themes and medievil like atmosphere
Original Gameplay but Wrapped up in TLOS themes

You are going into a different way, let's see:

As hard as it is, the original concept was starting to grow stale and the character derailment in the last few games (Shadow Legacy...) was starting to make a dent in Spyro's pedigree as a viable setting.

I think the Developers were trying too hard to change the series but they changed the wrong things. I could see much mire potensial in the Original Storyline and Characters as well as gameplay, obviously Sierra didn't and that's why they thought it was right to reboot the series.

The LoS reboot was an opportunity to return to the basics: just Spyro and Sparx.

Which I think was a very bad Idea seeing they had a whole cast of immaginative characters to play with and always the opportunity to make new ones.

It re-imagined the world and replaced the old excuse plot with something that was actually worth paying attention to.

The New plot is much more in-depth than the old ones seen, though that does not mean the old Storyline had no potential. Look at Zelda, it started with a very simple plot but branched out into very very in depth ones, while still keeping the same storyline and themes.

Likewise, Spyro's arrogance, inflated to the point of making him near-unbearable by the end of the classic serie, was toned down as he was made into a more innocent, idealistic character.

I think making Spyro a Gary-Stu was a bad idea, it is just unrealistic. I think his arrogance was fine really, atleast it gave him some personality.

Sparx was also given a voice and despite losing the health meter function, get a sidekick role.

Also a bad idea, They were trying to make it like Jak and Daxtar but the Spyro formula was fine, Having many characters in one level to communicate with and Hunter that you would met occasionly was good enough, And Sparx had a much more useful role in the originals.
The thing they did with AHT i recon was a good move, as much as I used to hate it, i think it was a step in the right direction for Sparx. Keeping his gameplay stuff but adding him into story was good, But too, I wouldn't mind if he just kept the buzzing and thats it.

The battle system was improved, making enemy encounters much more involved and Gems have a direct effect on Spyro's stats rather than just pump up a counter.

I think it was a good idea for the TLOS series, but i wouldn't want it to continue

References to the old games via subtle details were many ; Spyro's model, in-game, is shockingly close to his PS1 version,

Are you kidding me? If you compare their facial features and body, they are strikingly different. Every other Spyro design before was more similar to the Original Spyro 1 than the ANB one.

enemies stop to point and laugh at you (even the bosses) like they used to in the PS1 days,

Wait, do they?

and veterans might notice the re-use of character and even, at times, location names.

The problem is even though they share the names, they are actually Completely different. eg.Valley of avalar, looks nothing like avalar or absolutely any of the levels. eg. Hunter, looks nothing like hunter, doesn't sound like him doesn't act like him.

First of all, at the exception of the third LoS game, there is a serious lack of exploration. Considering Spyro's premise and overall abilities (exploring surreal worlds, beating up a bajillion baddies on the way), the lack of any places to explore really hurts.

Yes, this is especially true for the first 2 TLOS games. For games which is supposed to be about discovering a new world, the linerity is obviously bad. DOTD wasn't much of an improvement, it removed some of the linerity but the levels were still small and linear.

One point is also that although the plot is genuinely better, the games are so darn short that barely anyone save maybe Spyro get decent exposure.

True, The length of TLOS is a serious downfall

The old games had silly plots that bordered on excuse-type

I'm sick of people saying this, THE STORIES WERE NOT SILLY, THEY HAD A PERFECTLY LOGICAL PLOT. IT IS TRUE THEY DONT TRY TO BE VERY SERIOUS BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE SILLY.

but the games were fairly long, allowing for plenty of character development and funny development.

yes

By comparison, LoS has a much thicker plot but you're thrown through each locale so stupidly fast that you never get to know the characters or get any sizeable amount of lines or anything.

ok

The new games also do away with game overs and death penalties. This contribute to the loss of challenge, removing the need for effort. Sure, the old games weren't terribly difficult... but the threat of failure was real in those at least.

I don't know, I guess it would be more difficult, but they should deffienly work on the Length before doing this first. And work on the variety of gameplay.

First of all, one thing that A New Beginning and The Eternal Night did well was their references to the old games. Although the details might seem minor, I found them to be very nice touches and I sorely missed them in DotD. So having them would be a good start.

I did not see any if not many

Now, another thing would be limiting the flight from DotD. Although flight was a good idea, it was poorly implemented leading to broken gameplay ; unlimited flight activated any time is NEVER a good idea, especially when it's as automatic and forgiving as in DotD, making all of the platforming worthless (which is bad, since the Spyro serie is about platforming).

In my opinion, the free flight was shocking. It made Platforming a NIGHTMARE! For me, Free flight should only be a powerup and a reward for getting 100%

One thing that DotD did well was bring back exploration. I'd like to see them expend on it though ; make the levels larger, longer, and add extra objectives (maybe sub-quests and sub-plots).

Again, I thought the levels were Very Small in DOTD. The bigger ones were smaller than Some of the levels in the Originals and there were alot of levels in Spyro 1 that were bigger! TLOS should quit with the linearity and add some options.

An important point would also making the games longer ; 8-10 hours is really cheap considering how long the older Spyro games were and with the new improved plotline and its potential, I refuse to believe that they couldn't stretch through a few extra hours. This would both give more gameplay and more potential for exposing the characters and developing the setting as a whole.

Yes

Finally, do away with infinite lives ; either have Spyro have only one life or have a limited number of lives. This would give incentives to actually conserve health and give meaning to the presence of save points and checkpoints.

This may be a good idea, maybe not

As for the battle system... keep it. This is one of the things that the new Spyro setting does well. The system is actually pretty interesting and well-done. The reason it felt repetitive in ANB was mostly due to the lack of platforming and exploration, bringing forth monotony. TEN (which feature platforming) and DotD (which has exploration) doesn't suffer from this problem nearly as much.

I think the combat isn't very good no, THere's n point of it, it's basicly just a way to make the game longer and not put effort into the game by putting puzzle and platforming.

Basically, that's the basics to me: keep the battle system but make it longer, remove infinite flight, more exploration, and limited lives.

For me it'd have to be Remove battle system, Infinite Flight 100% or powerup, breathes powerup, levels as big as ETD, limited lives (as long as no battle system for now), Put in sidequests, And generally bring the original style back but add many more thing

The best of both worlds... the improved combat and plot of the LoS serie but the longer gameplay, better character exposure, and exploration of the old games. A game that would honor its roots while still separating itself neatly from them.

I'd say just botch TLOS, and bring back originals

Stormy · Dec 03, 2008 4:47 PM

Mew wrote:

The LoS reboot was an opportunity to return to the basics: just Spyro and Sparx. It re-imagined the world and replaced the old excuse plot with something that was actually worth paying attention to. Likewise, Spyro's arrogance, inflated to the point of making him near-unbearable by the end of the classic serie, was toned down as he was made into a more innocent, idealistic character. Sparx was also given a voice and despite losing the health meter function, get a sidekick role.

I've said it a million times and I'll say it again: What's so special about the TLoS story? It's nothing new, nothing original, nothing we haven't seen a million times already.

I thought the original Spyro's "arrogance" was, well, original. Spyro as a Gary Stu in TLoS, on the other hand, not so much. He's basically the selfless, destiny-driven epic hero we see in pretty much every other story with dragons. And he has a girlfriend now, oooh.

As for Sparx, I liked him better with no speech. He's simply not funny, and somehow, Insomniac had managed to give him a fun personality with just buzzing sounds.

The battle system was improved, making enemy encounters much more involved and Gems have a direct effect on Spyro's stats rather than just pump up a counter. References to the old games via subtle details were many ; Spyro's model, in-game, is shockingly close to his PS1 version, enemies stop to point and laugh at you (even the bosses) like they used to in the PS1 days, and veterans might notice the re-use of character and even, at times, location names.

Button-mashing != good gameplay. Ever. And why is it a good thing to have a health and breath meter? I found these things pretty annoying.

The only reference I noticed to the old games was "Hunter of Avalar" in TEN, but it made me more angry than anything. They've changed Hunter just as much as they've changed Spyro. For goodness sake, if you're going to do a reboot, do a freaking reboot. Or at least come up with different names for your characters.

Never noticed the pointing and laughing; I was probably too busy button-mashing.

First of all, at the exception of the third LoS game, there is a serious lack of exploration. Considering Spyro's premise and overall abilities (exploring surreal worlds, beating up a bajillion baddies on the way), the lack of any places to explore really hurts.

I totally agree. Since the game is so story-based, they really have no choice but to make the levels linear and unreplayable, lest the player dare to venture away from their set storyline.

One point is also that although the plot is genuinely better, the games are so darn short that barely anyone save maybe Spyro get decent exposure.
The old games had silly plots that bordered on excuse-type but the games were fairly long, allowing for plenty of character development and funny development.
By comparison, LoS has a much thicker plot but you're thrown through each locale so stupidly fast that you never get to know the characters or get any sizeable amount of lines or anything.

I repeat, what's so great about the TLoS story? The "silly" plot of the old games was creative and refreshing amidst so many dark, over-serious "save-the-world-from-evil-darkness" crap.

The new games also do away with game overs and death penalties. This contribute to the loss of challenge, removing the need for effort. Sure, the old games weren't terribly difficult... but the threat of failure was real in those at least.
Various nitpicks could also be thrown at the new games.

Agreed with this too. I believe they got rid of the lives because they were aiming for a younger audience, and the concept of failure often scares little kids.

First of all, one thing that A New Beginning and The Eternal Night did well was their references to the old games. Although the details might seem minor, I found them to be very nice touches and I sorely missed them in DotD. So having them would be a good start.

Like I said, I wish they hadn't done this at all. Heck, I would have preferred it if they had come up with a different dragon character, not Spyro. These new games aren't Spyro anymore, so why should they steal his name?

As for the battle system... keep it. This is one of the things that the new Spyro setting does well. The system is actually pretty interesting and well-done. The reason it felt repetitive in ANB was mostly due to the lack of platforming and exploration, bringing forth monotony. TEN (which feature platforming) and DotD (which has exploration) doesn't suffer from this problem nearly as much.

No battle system, just no. I prefer to have to think about what I'm doing rather than just mindlessly killing things. Not fun. sad

I didn't comment on your points about DotD because I haven't played it yet.

ratchet wrote:

I'd say just botch TLOS, and bring back originals

Amen. big_smile

Spyro Master · Dec 03, 2008 6:50 PM

i tihnk pretty much half teh forums population wnats teh originals bak me included but i agree wiv that spyro has turned into something which we hav seen in many games and characters wiv a destiny which is teh only concern to furfill it 4 example lukes in star wars wiv killing teh darkside or woteva i dunno but its bascily following destiny teh games r is all im saying

RedDragonX · Dec 03, 2008 11:38 PM

Well again..this only proves just how divided the fanbase is...."sigh" there is going to be those who are in love with the old games and who love the new ones......I personally enjoy both of them....and if you don't enjoy the new ones then it's fine by me...you are entitled to your own opinions.....it is impossible to have any story that doesn't have cliches...and yes the LoS story has certainly been used before......the only reason I enjoyed it was because of the characters and I did want to see what happened next...the gameplay itself wasn't bad...but again that's going to be different for everyone....I enjoyed the game in my own gaming mind...

The story was going to make the attempt to bring back Spyro in a different light...and they KNEW that they would be losing fans when they did it.....and yes it was wrong in my mind to do that...because they could have kept the fanbase whole.....but I'm glad that they did what they did because after the last couple of developers really sunk with ETD and AHT....the change did renew some interest in the purple dragon....I have friends asking me for the game now after not playing the originals for like....8 years....just to see what it was like.....but it's still gonna be different...some enjoy it and some don't...

It's all based on personal preferences...I didn't agree with this reboot at first..but now I don't mind what they did....the Spyro fanfiction section has certainly benefited...we had 150 stories before LoS came out and now we are close to 700.....so at least it renewed writing interest. As for gamers...many different things impacted the results......the time period...the designers....the marketing....all of it had an impact...and for LoS....unfortunetly it was a negative one.....it's a real shame that some of the smaller things could not be better....but you can't win them all.......I am more satisifed with this Spyro then having no Spyro at all.....screw that....but then again that is only my opinion.

Many small factors could have made the difference between wild success and major disappointment....but seeing as how people are not crying for the series to end....it didn't exactly bomb out....but they still face the issue of catering to everyone's needs in the next instalment...and as far as I can see...unless they pull a miracle it isn't going to happen.

#1 Dec 03, 2008 5:39 AM

Best of both worlds...

#2 Dec 03, 2008 10:39 AM

Re: Best of both worlds...

#3 Dec 03, 2008 4:47 PM

Re: Best of both worlds...

#4 Dec 03, 2008 6:50 PM

Re: Best of both worlds...

#5 Dec 03, 2008 11:38 PM

Re: Best of both worlds...

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