Comickers attention please!

Fletch_Talon · Aug 30, 2008 11:46 PM

Atresac wrote:

A Guy wrote:
Personally, I do not go looking in comics going "Wow, such amazing panel layout, this comic owns more than all the others that actually have a better story to tell", and my comic reading experience is not improved by different panel layouts-I only need to know what direction I am supposed to read when reading the comic.
Note that I never implied that creative use of the comic medium makes up for things like crappy story, crappy dialog, crappy characterization, etc.
And wow, such boring tastes. That's like "I don't need this meal to taste good, I just need it to go into my stomach and provide my body with nourishment to survive. Things like flavor are for tossers".

id say its more like

wow this meal tastes good, a little burnt on the edge but who cares thats home cooking for you
going out to restaraunts just because they have fancy non parallel edged plates is for tossers >_>

btw im not having a serious go at you though, different people look for different things in a comic, i like a good story with occasional gags that can make me laugh, you on the other hand want absolutely everything

however just consider the fact that most media, movie, books, comics, tv shows etc. are judged based on the majority opinion, and im pretty sure that OotS has a larger fanbase than Sam and Fuzzy, though granted it could be due to the fact that OotS is based on the most popular tabletop roleplaying game in western culture and has been published in the official magazine of said game

Kamineko · Aug 30, 2008 11:49 PM

A Guy wrote:

Technically, the story is the meal, and the panel layout is the plate on which it is served. Of course, if the meal is served on a dirty plate, it would make the meal unappetizing, however, the main purpose of the plate is to allow the meal to be served.

the whole comic is the meal. It is the whole. Things like characterization, plot, story, layout, etc. are the spices, sauces, and pepper on the whole thing to make it not bland.

Anyway, I'm working on a quick two pages of comics that will hopefully display my point to you all.

Kamineko · Aug 30, 2008 11:52 PM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

Atresac wrote:
A Guy wrote:
Personally, I do not go looking in comics going "Wow, such amazing panel layout, this comic owns more than all the others that actually have a better story to tell", and my comic reading experience is not improved by different panel layouts-I only need to know what direction I am supposed to read when reading the comic.
Note that I never implied that creative use of the comic medium makes up for things like crappy story, crappy dialog, crappy characterization, etc.
And wow, such boring tastes. That's like "I don't need this meal to taste good, I just need it to go into my stomach and provide my body with nourishment to survive. Things like flavor are for tossers".
id say its more like
wow this meal tastes good, a little burnt on the edge but who cares thats home cooking for you
going out to restaraunts just because they have fancy non parallel edged plates is for tossers >_>
btw im not having a serious go at you though, different people look for different things in a comic, i like a good story with occasional gags that can make me laugh, you on the other hand want absolutely everything
however just consider the fact that most media, movie, books, comics, tv shows etc. are judged based on the majority opinion, and im pretty sure that OotS has a larger fanbase than Sam and Fuzzy, though granted it could be due to the fact that OotS is based on the most popular tabletop roleplaying game in western culture and has been published in the official magazine of said game

I can't put this in a nice way but you need to take into consideration the majority opinion doesn't alawys denote one of any quality. I'm sure Disaster Movie is going to be just as terrible as the Scary Movies, Epic Movie, Date Movie, etc. but people will still go watch it even though every single review on it is a negative one.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 30, 2008 11:52 PM

Atresac wrote:

A Guy wrote:
Technically, the story is the meal, and the panel layout is the plate on which it is served. Of course, if the meal is served on a dirty plate, it would make the meal unappetizing, however, the main purpose of the plate is to allow the meal to be served.
the whole comic is the meal. It is the whole. Things like characterization, plot, story, layout, etc. are the spices, sauces, and pepper on the whole thing to make it not bland.
Anyway, I'm working on a quick two pages of comics that will hopefully display my point to you all.

no... big no

to say the story characters and the like are spices or condiments or a side dish or... why did we start comparing comics to food, i havnt had breakfast yet >_>

anyway my point is, a comic is nothing, dead set nothing without either a story or a joke, you dont have peoplstarting a comic by saying

"hey, i want to put something in this irregular parrallelogram, i know ill make a comic!"
"what will it be about?"
"i dunno zombies or some *bleep*"

A Guy · Aug 30, 2008 11:57 PM

Can't we all just get along?

Kamineko · Aug 30, 2008 11:58 PM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

Atresac wrote:
A Guy wrote:
Technically, the story is the meal, and the panel layout is the plate on which it is served. Of course, if the meal is served on a dirty plate, it would make the meal unappetizing, however, the main purpose of the plate is to allow the meal to be served.
the whole comic is the meal. It is the whole. Things like characterization, plot, story, layout, etc. are the spices, sauces, and pepper on the whole thing to make it not bland.
Anyway, I'm working on a quick two pages of comics that will hopefully display my point to you all.
no... big no
to say the story characters and the like are spices or condiments or a side dish or... why did we start comparing comics to food, i havnt had breakfast yet >_>
anyway my point is, a comic is nothing, dead set nothing without either a story or a joke, you dont have peoplstarting a comic by saying
"hey, i want to put something in this irregular parrallelogram, i know ill make a comic!"
"what will it be about?"
"i dunno zombies or some *bleep*"

they make the comic the whole. They're essential to the entirety of the comic. Without them... well you don't really have a meal. Just... garbage.

Now every comic has a story but the quality of them is in the air.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 30, 2008 11:59 PM

Atresac wrote:

I can't put this in a nice way but you need to take into consideration the majority opinion doesn't alawys denote one of any quality. I'm sure Disaster Movie is going to be just as terrible as the Scary Movies, Epic Movie, Date Movie, etc. but people will still go watch it even though every single review on it is a negative one.

firstly there was nothing not nice about that, i guess it could be construed as a little elitest with the whole quality remark but eh? im not worried

as for your point, i saw epic movie when it came out... it was *bleep*... but i had fun, because it was *bleep*

i dunno if thats why other people watch them but thats my excuse (not that ive seen the others in the "____ movie" series

also media is always going to be aimed at a specific target audience, if you want to aim it at the audience sitting there in berets smoking cigarettes talking about the latest artsy movie from uzbekistan fine

but most webcomics are going to be aimed at a wider audience, who for the most part dont care about panel layout, or at least can look past it to the actual meat of the comic

Fletch_Talon · Aug 31, 2008 12:05 AM

A Guy wrote:

Can't we all just get along?

dangit A Guy, you were doing so well

i thought we'd finally snapped you out of your vow of passivity (besides we are getting along)

and Atresac, i and most people who read webcomics (i know they arent your fancy dancy print comics) will disagree with you, you can have a good comic without fancy panel layout but you cant have a good comic without a good story (or humour if its that kind of comic)

the panels in a comic should be treated as extras, if youre gonna do something fancy you do it occasionally otherwise they lose their meaning
otherwise, if you dont need it (ie. you get mood/feeling across in other ways like art/dialogue/colour/whatever) then why use it

Kamineko · Aug 31, 2008 12:05 AM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

Atresac wrote:
I can't put this in a nice way but you need to take into consideration the majority opinion doesn't alawys denote one of any quality. I'm sure Disaster Movie is going to be just as terrible as the Scary Movies, Epic Movie, Date Movie, etc. but people will still go watch it even though every single review on it is a negative one.
firstly there was nothing not nice about that, i guess it could be construed as a little elitest with the whole quality remark but eh? im not worried
as for your point, i saw epic movie when it came out... it was *bleep*... but i had fun, because it was *bleep*
i dunno if thats why other people watch them but thats my excuse (not that ive seen the others in the "____ movie" series
also media is always going to be aimed at a specific target audience, if you want to aim it at the audience sitting there in berets smoking cigarettes talking about the latest artsy movie from uzbekistan fine
but most webcomics are going to be aimed at a wider audience, who for the most part dont care about panel layout, or at least can look past it to the actual meat of the comic

But if you can add simple things like decent characterization or changing a panel every once in a while with little effort, and don't, you do a disservice to your readers.

You don't need to be a snob to know when one thing is of a better quality than another. People really liked The Dark Knight. Was it because it had a good story? Yeah, I'm sure people liked that. But what I mostly hear is how Ledger gave the Joker life. Also, everyone's acting was top-caliber, the lighting did wonders for the atmosphere, and everything breathed life into the movie.

Now even if the majority of the people don't notice all of those things, the majority of the people who loved it also know that it's better than a lot of other movies.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 31, 2008 12:21 AM

Atresac wrote:

But if you can add simple things like decent characterization or changing a panel every once in a while with little effort, and don't, you do a disservice to your readers.
You don't need to be a snob to know when one thing is of a better quality than another. People really liked The Dark Knight. Was it because it had a good story? Yeah, I'm sure people liked that. But what I mostly hear is how Ledger gave the Joker life. Also, everyone's acting was top-caliber, the lighting did wonders for the atmosphere, and everything breathed life into the movie.
Now even if the majority of the people don't notice all of those things, the majority of the people who loved it also know that it's better than a lot of other movies.

well lets just establish that movies do not = webcomics or comics or anything of that sort

characters in comics are important, no argument, theyre important in any form of story telling, what we're discussing is the shape of the frame we're putting them in

but now lets compare movies, print comics and webcomics respectivelty

STAFF
-lots of people in charge of the individual aspects of the movie, someone in charge of the characters and actors, someone in chrge of lighting, special effects, props and even someone in charge of camera angles

-generally someone does the story, whilst another person does the art, someone else to ink it, and someone else to colour it, yes sometimes people will do more than one of these jobs

-usually one person doing everything

TIME
-often years to release one movie

-not 100% sure but i would assume the more frequent the deadlines the more staff there would be to cover it

-often struggling to meet a regular date, which may be weekly, if they can manage, they also generally have a job other than writing webcomics since its not always all that profitable

now, if a comic can be released and does not require the "extra" that is interesting panel layout, and yet its still popular, its still effective, it still promotes discussion and interest in the characters and settings of the comic

why should the author waste their time?
its like adding a cherry to the top of the cake, its a nice touch, kinda fun, but when you scoff down the whole thing, youve forgotten all about the cherry, its all the cake man

also here's a good OotS strip (for me, i know for you a good OotS is an oxymoron) still no interesting panel layout but oh well

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html

A Guy · Aug 31, 2008 12:30 AM

Hey, that's one of my favorite strips.

Kamineko · Aug 31, 2008 12:34 AM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

Atresac wrote:
But if you can add simple things like decent characterization or changing a panel every once in a while with little effort, and don't, you do a disservice to your readers.
You don't need to be a snob to know when one thing is of a better quality than another. People really liked The Dark Knight. Was it because it had a good story? Yeah, I'm sure people liked that. But what I mostly hear is how Ledger gave the Joker life. Also, everyone's acting was top-caliber, the lighting did wonders for the atmosphere, and everything breathed life into the movie.
Now even if the majority of the people don't notice all of those things, the majority of the people who loved it also know that it's better than a lot of other movies.
well lets just establish that movies do not = webcomics or comics or anything of that sort
characters in comics are important, no argument, theyre important in any form of story telling, what we're discussing is the shape of the frame we're putting them in
but now lets compare movies, print comics and webcomics respectivelty
STAFF
-lots of people in charge of the individual aspects of the movie, someone in charge of the characters and actors, someone in chrge of lighting, special effects, props and even someone in charge of camera angles
-generally someone does the story, whilst another person does the art, someone else to ink it, and someone else to colour it, yes sometimes people will do more than one of these jobs
-usually one person doing everything
TIME
-often years to release one movie
-not 100% sure but i would assume the more frequent the deadlines the more staff there would be to cover it
-often struggling to meet a regular date, which may be weekly, if they can manage, they also generally have a job other than writing webcomics since its not always all that profitable
now, if a comic can be released and does not require the "extra" that is interesting panel layout, and yet its still popular, its still effective, it still promotes discussion and interest in the characters and settings of the comic
why should the author waste their time?
its like adding a cherry to the top of the cake, its a nice touch, kinda fun, but when you scoff down the whole thing, youve forgotten all about the cherry, its all the cake man
also here's a good OotS strip (for me, i know for you a good OotS is an oxymoron) still no interesting panel layout but oh well
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html

My constant use of relating comics to movies is simply to show that each medium has its own resources that the creator *should* try to make every use of. Otherwise, they are consciously doing their readers a disservice.

I'm not trying to simply argue that the layout of a comic is important, but that EVERY part of the comic is important. Each piece is a cog in the bigger machine and if you leave one out the whole thing just doesn't go right. Sure, it may still go, but your clock will now be 5 minutes ahead of where it should be, because you forgot to give your characters dimension.

Saying that the author is "wasting their time" by trying to make their comic the best it can be is just a lame way of thinking. I mean I can see the cherry on top being a cool one-liner tossed in or a lighthearted moment during a dramatic story, but layout it something that is part of the whole comic constantly.

Kamineko · Aug 31, 2008 12:43 AM

I threw these example together really quick using characters I made in some of my own comics. Art ain't the best, neither is the layout in the one where it's supposed to be, but it's just to create a basic idea.

Here we see the cast of Insanity Supreme going through some simple activities you may see in your average comic using a simple [ ][ ][ ] layout. You see what's going on fine, but it's kinda boring

Here, the cast of Raising Hell go through the same activities, but with some different panel construction. Now we know that with Insanity Supreme, everything was displayed fine. However, a few minor additions to those activities breaths life into the page, and makes it more interesting to look at.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 31, 2008 12:45 AM

Atresac wrote:

Saying that the author is "wasting their time" by trying to make their comic the best it can be is just a lame way of thinking. I mean I can see the cherry on top being a cool one-liner tossed in or a lighthearted moment during a dramatic story, but layout it something that is part of the whole comic constantly.

without story = failure
without good characters = failure
without good art = depends on how bad it is and whether its purposeful or not
without good panel layout = good, but not the best it could be (at least in your opinion)

as for a "lame way of thinking" unfortunately webcomic artists have to struggle to keep an audience, the longer it takes for a strip to come out the more people are gonna be disappointed and not come back

lets look at another media that has a lot of different tools at its disposal

art
does an artist need to use absolutely everything at his disposal to be successful or make a good artwork?

line
tone
colour
composition
shape
depth
texture
and more

they all add something, but you dont have to use everything , and in some cases if you do, the artwork will become cluttered and horrible

OotS uses a lot of text, you said it yourself, therefore i would argue that it expresses itself through dialogue, which doesnt remove the addition that panel layout could make to effectiveness, but it does remove the "need for it"

also considering the multitude of text balloons, any panel layout would be fairly swiftly drowned out, resulting in a "cluttered art piece"

Fletch_Talon · Aug 31, 2008 12:55 AM

Atresac wrote:

I threw these example together really quick using characters I made in some of my own comics. Art ain't the best, neither is the layout in the one where it's supposed to be, but it's just to create a basic idea.
Here we see the cast of Insanity Supreme going through some simple activities you may see in your average comic using a simple [ ][ ][ ] layout. You see what's going on fine, but it's kinda boring
Here, the cast of Raising Hell go through the same activities, but with some different panel construction. Now we know that with Insanity Supreme, everything was displayed fine. However, a few minor additions to those activities breaths life into the page, and makes it more interesting to look at.

first of all it would have been a better example if you had used the same characters/scenarios in both comics, it makes it easier to compare

second of all, id argue youve used more dramatic artwork in the second one due to your bias towards that opinion, but i can look past that cuz i know the point youre trying to get at

now the actual response
yes the second is better
its also wasting space
itd make a good page for a comic book, except it would have a huge amount of blank pointless space
well i shouldnt say pointless, cuz it does create drama and emphasis, but when its not required, all it achieves is a waste of bandwidth or ink

plus when you have to collect your strips into book form, it helps to conserve as much space as possible to keep printing costs down, especially when you arent making a huge amount of money from your comic

though i must admit i dont know how much OotS would be worth to the author

Kamineko · Aug 31, 2008 1:01 AM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

Atresac wrote:
Saying that the author is "wasting their time" by trying to make their comic the best it can be is just a lame way of thinking. I mean I can see the cherry on top being a cool one-liner tossed in or a lighthearted moment during a dramatic story, but layout it something that is part of the whole comic constantly.
without story = failure
without good characters = failure
without good art = depends on how bad it is and whether its purposeful or not
without good panel layout = good, but not the best it could be (at least in your opinion)
as for a "lame way of thinking" unfortunately webcomic artists have to struggle to keep an audience, the longer it takes for a strip to come out the more people are gonna be disappointed and not come back
lets look at another media that has a lot of different tools at its disposal
art
does an artist need to use absolutely everything at his disposal to be successful or make a good artwork?
line
tone
colour
composition
shape
depth
texture
and more
they all add something, but you dont have to use everything , and in some cases if you do, the artwork will become cluttered and horrible
OotS uses a lot of text, you said it yourself, therefore i would argue that it expresses itself through dialogue, which doesnt remove the addition that panel layout could make to effectiveness, but it does remove the "need for it"
also considering the multitude of text balloons, any panel layout would be fairly swiftly drowned out, resulting in a "cluttered art piece"

Story and characters are essential to comics that try to tell a story. Not every comic does. Comics like White Ninja, Dinosaur Comics, XKCD, don't have any real story (DC does sometimes though). Now admittedly they also don't have very creative art or panel layout (especially DC, read a few and you'll see what I mean), but since there's rarely any emotion that needs to be shown since there's no solid story, it doesn't really matter. If they wanted to create atmosphere, yeah, they'd want to step up their game.

As for webcomics needing to keep an audience, one of the first rules of making a comic is to have at least 10 to fall back on so you can work on them and not worry about falling behind schedule. Keeping up to schedule is a problem beyond simply comic-making.

Cluttered art? If you apply all of those and your work looks cluttered, you need to work on your abilities as an artist. I can't think of any way those things could be applied and make the art look cluttered, even if they were all added. I mean I can see texture getting in the way if you draw every single brick but other than that a competent artist could fit them all in pretty well.

Being dialog-driven doesn't mean every character has to have an entire page's worth text. Unless there's some big plot-revealing moment in a book, most character's lines are one or two sentences. And panel layout can greatly reduce how much text is in each panel. My second page I made, where he is beholding the large object, says more than what the first one did, but since it's spread throughout three panels instead, it's less cluttered and ugly. Not to mention the added two panels add a sense of pace to it, instead of taking it all in at once, so adding panels wouldn't clutter it, if the artist understands what he's doing, it could do quite the opposite.

Kamineko · Aug 31, 2008 1:10 AM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

Atresac wrote:
I threw these example together really quick using characters I made in some of my own comics. Art ain't the best, neither is the layout in the one where it's supposed to be, but it's just to create a basic idea.
Here we see the cast of Insanity Supreme going through some simple activities you may see in your average comic using a simple [ ][ ][ ] layout. You see what's going on fine, but it's kinda boring
Here, the cast of Raising Hell go through the same activities, but with some different panel construction. Now we know that with Insanity Supreme, everything was displayed fine. However, a few minor additions to those activities breaths life into the page, and makes it more interesting to look at.
first of all it would have been a better example if you had used the same characters/scenarios in both comics, it makes it easier to compare
second of all, id argue youve used more dramatic artwork in the second one due to your bias towards that opinion, but i can look past that cuz i know the point youre trying to get at
now the actual response
yes the second is better
its also wasting space
itd make a good page for a comic book, except it would have a huge amount of blank pointless space
well i shouldnt say pointless, cuz it does create drama and emphasis, but when its not required, all it achieves is a waste of bandwidth or ink
plus when you have to collect your strips into book form, it helps to conserve as much space as possible to keep printing costs down, especially when you arent making a huge amount of money from your comic
though i must admit i dont know how much OotS would be worth to the author

It's easier to fit more dramatic artwork into multiple panels. Take the dialog part and try having the people from Insanity Supreme doing the same hand gestures. It'd just fill up the panel. Even if you made the panel wider, it'd have each character on opposing ends, which would look pretty awkward.

As for the space, that's my fault. I wasn't really trying to make each segment part of a story, but just different things to show how differing panel structure can spice up what could otherwise be a dull moment.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself, and at the same time wearing myself out. I've gone around in circles about something that started with me suggesting to look at print comics instead of webcomics for tips on how to do a good comic since print comics are usually more dynamic and professional. I never wanted to start some kind of debate of the individual aspects of each medium.

I've pretty much said all I can on the subject at this point, and my brain is fried. I keep catching myself making typos (I just typed catching with a "k") and losing myself when I get to that little spyro in the text box.

It's all well and good if you don't care about elements of comic creation. I've just always thought if someone's going to adopt a medium, they should make use of the medium, instead of making it kind of seem like they would rather be using a different one, which is the feeling I get when I read things like OotS or CAD (which was considerably better as an animated series, but still kind of horrible).

Anyways, I'm out for the night. Need to eat and then sleep and rest my head.

Kazoobie64 · Aug 31, 2008 4:22 AM

A Guy wrote:

Can't we all just get along?

NOOOOOOOO.

I love this thread, everyone is having a great discussion without jumping at each other's throats. We are giving glimpses on what a serious discussion is like in a college classroom. (Except in college, there are a lot of jumping-at-throats anyway.)

Atresac wrote:

He can fit his art into a panel all well and good, but that's not really hard when all of his characters are stick figures.

You... You haven't read anything of his besides Happy Noodle Boy, have you?

Atresac wrote:

If they know something is going to make money, you can bet your *bleep* they're going to hire someone who knows how to make a comic before putting it out there. Just because an idea is good, doesn't mean they can just hand it off to anybody and have it make money.

Nope. See: User Friendly. Printed, sold in bookstores, and it looks as if the author just copies and pastes for every single strip.

Fletch_Talon wrote:

wow this meal tastes good, a little burnt on the edge but who cares thats home cooking for you

That's a very good point. I suppose we're just getting into the realm of artistic view now. Have you guys ever seen the movie Ratatouille? I often use it as an example because its message is very truthful.

Ego was a very strict critic, criticising even the most perfect chefs, the most flawless dishes, but when Remy serves him the very average ratatouille dish, he is completely swayed by the meal being similar to his mother's cooking for him as a child when he needed comfort. So we learn that in the end, we'll often see the average piece of junk as more meaningful than the things we've come to expect at this point in time. I suppose critics often forget that, (Heck, I'm often a critic too.) because we're so hard to impress with all the same, bland works we see every day.

I am taught many rules in art classes, many techniques. It's usually best to perfect them, and I still work on that, but I really try not to restrict myself by so many rules when working on personal art. The techniques taught to you are just there, as, well techniques, as suggestions. Do what you can with them to create your piece of art. Make the effort to express whatever you want to express to whoever wants to view your artwork, but also to yourself. This is honestly the best advice I can give in terms of art, and not technique.

If I wanted to go into a field for the money and not the passion, I probably would have chosen law school a long time ago, heh.

SpyroandCynder4EVAH · Sep 01, 2008 4:53 AM

Now I find it... Geez. This thread runs away from me...

DarkMaster · Sep 01, 2008 4:56 AM

just use your imagination..........

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