Is piracy stealing?

Steinar · Jan 03, 2016 11:23 PM

I've been thinking about this lately. When you watch online series, or stuff. Isn't it more like sharing? I mean i've heard debates about it. And sharing it is different than physically stealing. Although one should maybe try to be supportive. But in general its been argued that they don't actually lose money from it. In terms of sharing, its just a way of spreading it to see if people are interested in the product.

I am just curious to what your thoughts are?

EricChristianOlsenFanatic · Jan 03, 2016 11:48 PM

I don't really think of it as stealing considering other people do it too.

LXShadow · Jan 04, 2016 1:56 AM

When thinking about this question I just envision myself as the content creator.

Say you've made a game priced at $10. 9,001 people bought it. Awesome, $90,010 for the hard work! Woot!

On the other hand, another 1,001 people (yarrrr!) also own and played through your entire game but they didn't pay for it. They might cite reasons such as 'not enjoying it enough'. The reason this is ethically unsound is the same reason that grocery stores don't let you walk away with food, and then let them know afterwards whether you're interested in paying for the produce.

The arguable difference to piracy is that it's only half-stealing: they do walk away with something, but you don't lose anything. When something is stolen you lose the item. When something is pirated you just lose the money you could've made from it. So...is that stealing? Not really if you want to be strict about the definition, but that's also kinda not the problem here. You kinda deserve that money, since that's what you're asking in return, as the creator, for the use of your product.

So it may be safe to say piracy isn't stealing. But looking at the bigger picture it's not the definition of 'stealing' that's the problem, right? It's the idea that people are walking away with your produce and you get zilch for it, despite investing in its creation.

That's my view on it, though I've gotta admit I'm guilty of pirating media (anime or cartoons) when I have no easy way to access it legally e.g. Crunchyroll. Regardless, it's never truly legally justifiable, but a lot of people like me just follow their own personal views on what's reasonable and what isn't. The fact that these things are usually made by massive groups of several people you don't know who get who-knows-how-much of the money in who-knows-what-ways, also blurs the ethical lines way more than it should compared to e.g. personal projects.

Steinar · Jan 04, 2016 10:38 AM

I guess you can define it as sharing more or less. But that it is good to support the people who made it. Since sharing can also.. believe it or not help one getting known. So in a way piracy can more or less help someone tongue

So yeah.. I guess its not in the definition more or less. But it is the right thing to do to support a person atleast.

That's my view on it, though I've gotta admit I'm guilty of pirating media (anime or cartoons)

Yeah me too. I bought Death Note once though because i really liked the show. I don't know if i have the DVDs yet though : 3
But then again most anime are released only in Japan. So there is no way of seeing it other than some fan subbing it in either way. Unless you move to Japan and learn the language tongue

Edit: But i will actually try to avoid downloading and planing buying stuff from now on. I will not throw away the burnt copies of Ps1 and Ps2 games that i already have though. Since i like the consoles in general. I will however buy the products wether it is on steam or PS4 (When i can afford it). Steam is friggin cheap, and buying a copy from another person wont really be paying to the company itself, so i guess its more ethical to buy it from the console or steam that way. I also will buy Windows 7... Yeah i am going hardcore i guess : 3. I don't like Windows 10, so i will just stick with Windows 7 for awhile.

Although i guess one is not so guilty when watching anime shows, because... like what other choice do you have?. Or one could watch it on sites like Crunchyroll if it exists atleast.

But yeah XD. I think there are good ways of dealing with it lol.

Last edited by Steinar (Jan 04, 2016 12:34 PM)

Swaffy · Jan 06, 2016 12:47 AM

Seeing how they are digital copies, what is one really stealing?

Money?

pff

Gekoncze · Jan 08, 2016 5:37 PM

I agree with LX mostly. Also, Steinar made a good point by saying it can gain popularity like that, but that might also be helped by providing free demo versions. An important point thought is that if they didn't pirate the game, would they really buy it? Would the seller in the end really loose some money? Maybe the people would go out play football instead! (or in case of movies watch it together in bigger groups) I don't like when people on TV make calculations of how much money did the company loose, because nobody can ever know.

I myself try to support (not only) games I really like, I would feel bad if I didn't, knowing they did a good job.

Last edited by Gekoncze (Jan 08, 2016 5:38 PM)

RangerOfIthilien · Jan 17, 2016 2:25 PM

I've always considered it stealing because you're obtaining something that has a set value without having to give up the cost of that value.

Dark Intentions · Jan 25, 2016 3:44 AM

As stated before, it's how one defines the word 'stealing'.

Streaming or downloading media (TV episodes, movies, video games etc) isn't confiscating the content from the creator's possession and permission isn't an applicable factor because it's not needed to purchase the content either.
Literally you are depriving the content creator of the profit they are entitled to which is more or less being unsupportive and inconsiderate of their hard work.

Using the content without purchase, however can be and is compared by some, including propaganda (in the form of an ad in the previews of some DVD/Blu rays) to walking out of a store with a DVD/Blu-ray tucked into one's jacket. Since a store won't allow one to walk out with a product to test it before purchase this can also plausibly be a valid assessment.

Another part of the picture is with what purpose one pirates content.

Convienence is the basis of my own participation in piracy. I've streamed and/or downloaded torrents of films or television episodes when:
1.) I'm only interested in owning a few television episodes as opposed to full seasons causing the DVD set to NOT be worth the money.
2.) When I'm unable to afford the DVD sets (which is the majority of the time, I've had to rely on birthday/christmas gifts for that for years) or to purchase them on itunes.
3.) In the case of films, when I am unable to get to the theater and am anxious enough to see a certain film.

Do I consider this stealing? Well, to be perfectly honest, as I always am, I've never given it any thought. I believe it's more considerate because when I can and am interested enough I will purchase the content, but stealing, now that I AM thinking about it, no, not so much.
Recently the content I have exclusively torrent downloaded are episodes of the TV series Bones. This is a series that still airs on television and nonetheless they gained a loyal fan who live tweets with the airings and thus adds to the viewership count. So really, they've lost nothing in my owning several episodes without purchase.

Looking at another scenario, if one pirated with the claim of wanting to test the content first which is invalid when you consider it doesn't have to be returned if the pirater is not satisfied or simply to not spend the money, that could be inteprited as either inconsiderate or stealing. Or both.

Swaffy · Jan 25, 2016 4:01 AM

Please take my last comment lightly. Heh, I'm aware. But what I do hate is ridiculously overpriced software. Double, triple, or higher than what it is worth.

Dark Intentions · Jan 25, 2016 4:07 AM

Another fine example of a viewpoint that can significantly alter the definition of "stealing".

Steinar · Jan 25, 2016 5:24 AM

Well companies now don't really re-sell unknown old games either way. Even though i am gonna get a PS3 i am not so sure all PS1 games i have burned will be there. And its not like they earn cash from me buying used original PS1 games. So i'd say i am more or less faultless with the times now. But one thing is for sure. They sure could make better games in the 90s, and even PS2 games had some gold ones. After that it has been just bad mostly. Although some golden games like Metal Gear Rising is awesome though big_smile

Last edited by Steinar (Jan 25, 2016 5:24 AM)

Swaffy · Jan 26, 2016 8:02 AM

Steinar wrote:

< After that it has been just bad mostly. >

Hey, keep in mind when you bash on modern games you are bashing creative games like Ori, Bastion, Dust, and many other games. There are still some game devs that put a serious amount of care into their game. "They just don't make games like they used to" is kind of a blind statement.

Paranoia · Jan 26, 2016 4:54 PM

Steinar wrote:

But one thing is for sure. They sure could make better games in the 90s, and even PS2 games had some gold ones. After that it has been just bad mostly.

Just because the games industry is a lot more saturated than it used to be doesn't mean there aren't still a lot of good games out there. You're just letting your nostalgia talk without putting any effort into finding something new you like. There's nothing wrong with liking old games more, but in general, the quality of games has improved by leaps and bounds since the 90's.

In terms of the piracy issue, I don't think it's ever okay to pirate a brand new movie or video game that's still actively on the market. Where I waver is emulation of older games, or games that are impractical to get a hold of legally. Example: Fire Emblem on the Gamecube costs over $100 and Mother 3 which was never released in the US.

Swaffy · Jan 27, 2016 9:05 AM

Paranoia wrote:

Where I waver is emulation of older games, or games that are impractical to get a hold of legally. Example: Fire Emblem on the Gamecube costs over $100 and Mother 3 which was never released in the US.

I think this is the most logical way of thinking on the topic. For me it is where I draw the line.

And for music, well, I always choose to buy my music since no one knows the bands I listen to, thus, no one makes torrents. lol. But these artists I love/appreciate very much and so I make sure to add a bit extra when I buy their albums. Without money they can't make music. Especially important for indy/local bands.

Dark Intentions · Feb 02, 2016 4:37 AM

Steinar wrote:

Well companies now don't really re-sell unknown old games either way.

This is another valid point.
I'm reminded of several years ago when I downloaded an SNES emulator to my old HP laptop as well as a couple of ROMs. Other than perhaps on Amazon from prior owners, you'll no longer find the SNES or its games for sale. So that's undeniably NOT stealing.

Steinar · Feb 06, 2016 8:13 PM

I read this. Its interesting. History on copyright

Copyright was about having laws against plagiarism and making monetary gains off of someone else's work. Filesharing is neither; though it could potentially be used for the latter, but the overwhelming majority of the time is not.

You can't steal a copy you just made or else making a copy in a printer is stealing, or using 3D printers is stealing, or simply hand copying books, or recording songs off the radio would be stealing also, and this has never been the case.

Take the bible for instance. People had to handcopy each writing. But with how stealing is redefined, it would be considered stealing.

That is what this is really about. Corporations are not making the same money because people are able to get the stuff for free, so they have lobbists persuade law makers into redefining the word theft so they can claim filesharing is stealing and you have some people stupid enough to use this useless tautology.
Vis mindre

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTybKL1pM4

Btw: If lets say you get techonology powerful enough that you can copy a car or something. Would that be stealing or sharing? I guess car companies would maybe make less, but i am not sure. I am kinda curious to your opinion if that existed smile

Last edited by Steinar (Feb 06, 2016 8:17 PM)

#1 Jan 03, 2016 11:23 PM

Is piracy stealing?

#2 Jan 03, 2016 11:48 PM

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#3 Jan 04, 2016 1:56 AM

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#4 Jan 04, 2016 10:38 AM

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#5 Jan 06, 2016 12:47 AM

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#6 Jan 08, 2016 5:37 PM

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#7 Jan 17, 2016 2:25 PM

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#8 Jan 25, 2016 3:44 AM

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#9 Jan 25, 2016 4:01 AM

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#10 Jan 25, 2016 4:07 AM

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#11 Jan 25, 2016 5:24 AM

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#12 Jan 26, 2016 8:02 AM

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#13 Jan 26, 2016 4:54 PM

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#14 Jan 27, 2016 9:05 AM

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#15 Feb 02, 2016 4:37 AM

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#16 Feb 06, 2016 8:13 PM

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