Very important, serious post

Steinar · Feb 04, 2015 9:08 PM

Hwd45 wrote:

Steinar wrote:
I am pretty sure "Paul the apostle" condemned homosexuality in the new testament. I know christians are not abided to the law of moses, but homosexuality in general is considered a sin, seeing it as sexual immorality. I'd love to hear what their interpretation is based upon or hear one debate about it. I just smell LGBT political pushy propaganda on this whole thing to be honest, and i'm no fan of them.
Heterophobia exists, but its in very small minority among gays. So its pretty normal to like and dislike something, thats kinda natural
Homosexuality is condemned a few times but theologians often note that the bible doesn't explicitly condemn it, but rather what is said is often interpreted as referring to homosexuality (e.g. "man should not lie with man as he does with woman"), and so it's often noted that in modern bibles any passages are really just interpretations and translations of older bibles, but over time the content of the bible has changed and is often edited to fit the current cultural beliefs regarding what the passage is referring to - many modern bibles actually do explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin where older bibles may not have. I don't think gay marriage is ever mentioned though, though the bible does often refer to marriage being between one man and one woman.
As for "heterophobia", it's (objectively) not a thing. Prejudice towards straight people? Sure, if that's what you mean then sure, but as a system of oppression it doesn't exist. Lots of society, social constructs and things we experience in day-to-day life is built on top of structural oppression such as homophobia and removing them from society takes a very, very long time, unfortunately. Homophobia is much much more than simple prejudice. Structural, systemic and institutionalised oppression is the result of prejudice and power coming together.

That quote was from the old testament in the law of moses.

But here. Just to make it clear.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

So to summarize. You cannot go to heaven if you do these things. The bible pretty much condems it. However Jesus is basically about forgiveness. So if you have done something bad, then you can pray for forgiveness and be forgiven. That's the main christian practice atleast.

Well thats the point. Humans are a successful species simply due to the fact that we can reproduce. Its biologically natural for us. But its true that the abrahamic religion is the cause to the *bleep* hate in historical terms.. well Islam still beheads people today, so they still live in the past. But the fact that humans can make laws is one thing, in terms of reason. But one cannot change theology without checking if the interpretation works, thats why christianity is like it is today.

If gays could produce an offspring, then that would be a different story, but since the gays are a weak link in evolution then hatred for "These types" shows off due to that, since then it would be more considered natural and not unnatural.

Heterophobia is rare, but it still exists. Its just normal human behavior, some like this and some like that.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde … 810AAfdjGo

Last edited by Steinar (Feb 04, 2015 9:12 PM)

36IStillLikeSpyro36 · Feb 04, 2015 9:12 PM

Hwd45 wrote:

Stormy wrote:
Can't you just say that heterophobia isn't as big of an issue as homophobia, at least?
Well I mean that kind of follows from the "system of oppression" argument. I get that it does seem like a redefinition of words but it's more about understanding that some social issues are fabricated and some are legitimate. Being prejudiced is never nice and if you're simply referring to prejudice when talking about either heterophobia or homophobia then that's fine. But it does frustrate a lot of people when people try to talk about something like social justice and something like "heterophobia" comes up - it just doesn't seem "mature", because it's just not really a social issue. At all but it's generally easier to say "it's not as big of an issue", though often people avoid saying that because it still implies there's some issue to it where no issue realistically exists.

everything that is wrong with society is a "social issue", no matter how prevalent it is. one instance in all of human history is still too much. it still affects somebody.

Stormy · Feb 04, 2015 9:15 PM

Regardless of the intentions, it's still a redefinition of words.

I get where you're coming from. I've never experienced "heterophobia" personally, so I don't have any personal stake in making people acknowledge it as a problem. But I have actually seen people being bullied for being straight (or white, or male) on websites like Tumblr, so to say it's not a problem at all isn't completely accurate. Now I know you're thinking, "But they can just leave that website; they don't have to deal with it everywhere they go." This is true. But bullying is bullying, whether or not it's escapable and whether or not it's "systematic." And bullying should always be treated as a problem.

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 9:16 PM

36IStillLikeSpyro36 wrote:

Hwd45 wrote:
Stormy wrote:
Can't you just say that heterophobia isn't as big of an issue as homophobia, at least?
Well I mean that kind of follows from the "system of oppression" argument. I get that it does seem like a redefinition of words but it's more about understanding that some social issues are fabricated and some are legitimate. Being prejudiced is never nice and if you're simply referring to prejudice when talking about either heterophobia or homophobia then that's fine. But it does frustrate a lot of people when people try to talk about something like social justice and something like "heterophobia" comes up - it just doesn't seem "mature", because it's just not really a social issue. At all but it's generally easier to say "it's not as big of an issue", though often people avoid saying that because it still implies there's some issue to it where no issue realistically exists.
everything that is wrong with society is a "social issue", no matter how prevalent it is. one instance in all of human history is still too much. it still affects somebody.

I agree that people shouldn't have to experience anything like that - prejudice can still be nasty right? I only have an issue when people try and equate the stuff that gay people experience on a day-to-day basis with that of straight people, because it doesn't quite equate. But no, prejudice can still be horrible

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 9:19 PM

Stormy wrote:

Regardless of the intentions, it's still a redefinition of words.
I get where you're coming from. I've never experienced "heterophobia" personally, so I don't have any personal stake in making people acknowledge it as a problem. But I have actually seen people being bullied for being straight (or white, or male) on websites like Tumblr, so to say it's not a problem at all isn't completely accurate. Now I know you're thinking, "But they can just leave that website; they don't have to deal with it everywhere they go." This is true. But bullying is bullying, whether or not it's escapable and whether or not it's "systematic." And bullying should always be treated as a problem.

I'm not excusing bullying! Though I've noticed that with tumblr the "bullying people because they're straight" thing tends to not happen even though it's a stereotype given to the website. I think it does happen occasionally but it tends to be done by parody blogs. It's a bit of a weird thing really because I see people on tumblr complain about it a lot but then I never actually see it? It's bizarre.

Also, the "they can just leave the website" is not really an ideology I stick to tongue it doesn't matter that you can just walk away because bullying isn't really as simple as that.

Stormy · Feb 04, 2015 9:23 PM

Hwd45 wrote:

Stormy wrote:
Regardless of the intentions, it's still a redefinition of words.
I get where you're coming from. I've never experienced "heterophobia" personally, so I don't have any personal stake in making people acknowledge it as a problem. But I have actually seen people being bullied for being straight (or white, or male) on websites like Tumblr, so to say it's not a problem at all isn't completely accurate. Now I know you're thinking, "But they can just leave that website; they don't have to deal with it everywhere they go." This is true. But bullying is bullying, whether or not it's escapable and whether or not it's "systematic." And bullying should always be treated as a problem.
I'm not excusing bullying! Though I've noticed that with tumblr the "bullying people because they're straight" thing tends to not happen even though it's a stereotype given to the website. I think it does happen occasionally but it tends to be done by parody blogs. It's a bit of a weird thing really because I see people on tumblr complain about it a lot but then I never actually see it? It's bizarre.
Also, the "they can just leave the website" is not really an ideology I stick to it doesn't matter that you can just walk away because bullying isn't really as simple as that.

Oh, don't worry, I wasn't accusing you of excusing bullying at all. tongue

And, well, just because you haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You might just be following the wrong (or should I say right?? tongue ) people. Sure, some of them probably are trolls or parody blogs, but I highly doubt all of them are. Tumblr has some pretty nasty people.

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 9:35 PM

Stormy wrote:

Hwd45 wrote:
Stormy wrote:
Regardless of the intentions, it's still a redefinition of words.
I get where you're coming from. I've never experienced "heterophobia" personally, so I don't have any personal stake in making people acknowledge it as a problem. But I have actually seen people being bullied for being straight (or white, or male) on websites like Tumblr, so to say it's not a problem at all isn't completely accurate. Now I know you're thinking, "But they can just leave that website; they don't have to deal with it everywhere they go." This is true. But bullying is bullying, whether or not it's escapable and whether or not it's "systematic." And bullying should always be treated as a problem.
I'm not excusing bullying! Though I've noticed that with tumblr the "bullying people because they're straight" thing tends to not happen even though it's a stereotype given to the website. I think it does happen occasionally but it tends to be done by parody blogs. It's a bit of a weird thing really because I see people on tumblr complain about it a lot but then I never actually see it? It's bizarre.
Also, the "they can just leave the website" is not really an ideology I stick to it doesn't matter that you can just walk away because bullying isn't really as simple as that.
Oh, don't worry, I wasn't accusing you of excusing bullying at all.
And, well, just because you haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You might just be following the wrong (or should I say right?? ) people. Sure, some of them probably are trolls or parody blogs, but I highly doubt all of them are. Tumblr has some pretty nasty people.

There are some terrible people, but I guess that's like anywhere on the internet. Personally I find it a but disheartening that people often tend to complain about when people are "overzealous" of their social justice on tumblr, but they don't comment on the many blogs depicting child abuse and paedophilia? Or the neo-nazi blogs? Or the racism which is still a big issue throughout the website? It's strange. I'm not saying you can't be upset by two issues at once but it's just a little upsetting

I mean with anons and stuff you can bully whoever you like and I've seen a lot of people get bullied off the website for saying silly things. Surprisingly, though, I've never seen anyone get bullied for being straight, white or male, but I think those are things which seem to be "targeted" when people exhibit racist, homophobic or misogynistic behaviour.

Not always though. I recently saw a post where instead of saying "men are terrifying" or something along those lines, they said "DMABs are terrifying". What's a DMAB you may ask? Anyone who's assigned male at birth. Why would they need to use that language instead of just saying "men" unless they were trying to squeeze in a little transphobia and pass it off as prejudice against just men? idk, tumblr is confusing and scary. There's a lot of good there though, but also a lot of bad

Last edited by Hwd45 (Feb 04, 2015 9:41 PM)

Steinar · Feb 04, 2015 9:41 PM

Fighting racism with racism ^^

Stormy · Feb 04, 2015 9:47 PM

Hwd45 wrote:

There are some terrible people, but I guess that's like anywhere on the internet. Personally I find it a but disheartening that people often tend to complain about when people are "overzealous" of their social justice on tumblr, but they don't comment on the many blogs depicting child abuse and paedophilia? Or the neo-nazi blogs? Or the racism which is still a big issue throughout the website? It's strange. I'm not saying you can't be upset by two issues at once but it's just a little upsetting

I would guess that's because the insults and bullying from what you call overzealous social justice are directly targeting the groups that you see calling it out, so it's a personal issue for them. And on top of that, many people seem to agree with those bullies, while the Neo-Nazi blogs and stuff like that are almost universally acknowledged as horrible. Pretty pointless to preach about something when your audience already agrees with you.

Not always though. I recently saw a post where instead of saying "men are terrifying" or something along those lines, they said "DMABs are terrifying". What's a DMAB you may ask? Any who's assigned male at birth. Why would they need to use that language instead of just saying "men" unless they were trying to squeeze in a little transphobia and pass it off as prejudice against just men? idk, tumblr is confusing and scary. There's a lot of good there though, but also a lot of bad

See, this is what makes me sad about this. You seem like you're pretty much okay with negative comments about men as a group and only take issue with it's changed to include an "oppressed" group. I know you're going to say it's because trans people are oppressed and men aren't, and I am not at all interested in having an argument where we count up oppression points... but I don't think it's right to ignore stuff like this just because it's not as big of a problem as another problem.

36IStillLikeSpyro36 · Feb 04, 2015 9:59 PM

Hwd45 wrote:

people often tend to complain about when people are "overzealous" of their social justice on tumblr

people who are into "social justice" seem to, note, seem to, often be riding on societal trends or only trying to give rights to demographics they personally choose rather than having an actual interest in overall, true "social justice". it's like what i said before, gay rights are a big issue right now, but you won't see too many social justice types talking about (what we're apparently calling) "heterophobia" even though it is, while less prevalent, still wrong.

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 10:05 PM

Stormy wrote:

See, this is what makes me sad about this. You seem like you're pretty much okay with negative comments about men as a group and only take issue with it's changed to include an "oppressed" group. I know you're going to say it's because trans people are oppressed and men aren't, and I am not at all interested in having an argument where we count up oppression points... but I don't think it's right to ignore stuff like this just because it's not as big of a problem as another problem.

Well, I never really said that I was "okay" with it, though I think the main reasoning behind why one thing can seem acceptable and the other isn't is because they have very different connotations. As a man, I often say that men are terrible. Sometimes I even say that white gay men are terrible despite being a very white very gay man. The words may be the same but they hold different meanings. On top of that, while for example most cisgender people don't have to experience any problem related to them being cis, a transgender person will constantly receive slightly different treatment because they're trans while a cis person won't. So the statement can have a very different effect depending on who it's aimed at, too.

Okay, okay, I see why that seems like a bad argument, but the main issue here comes down to false equivalence. While someone that says "ugh men" isn't necessarily ever gonna be like "YOU'RE A MAN??? EWW", someone that says "ugh transgender people" will have different intentions, so that's where the false equivalence comes in. It seems silly, I know, but it's kind of one of those things that makes more sense over time.

Okay, another argument maybe? If someone says "ugh men" then they're generally gonna follow it up with a reason why they're not really happy with men in general or something - it might be generalising to all men but it might still be a legitimate concern of a large population of men. If the same thing is said about trans people, it has different connotations because it's likely to be led up with something transphobic - on the other hand someone that's like "ugh trans people" might actually be adressing a legitimate problem with the trans community. Or maybe someone like me will go "ugh cis white gay men" and then be like "they're so racist and transphobic" and I'd certainly be generalising and the fact that it's coming from me, a cis white gay man doesn't really make anything acceptable, but they're just generally, culturally, socially and logically different situations, and equating something like "ugh men" (which can still be a terrible thing!!) to "ugh trans people" (which is in general a terrible thing) would be false equivalence

If you're not convinced then... I think I've done all the convincing I can do tongue there are people better at this whole social justice thing than me but I'm learning smile

Stormy · Feb 04, 2015 10:25 PM

While I do see what you're saying, I have actually heard all of this before. So no, you're not going to convince me that stereotyping of any group is acceptable, regardless of who it's directed towards, who it's coming from, what their position is in society, or whether or not they follow it up with how they were hurt by one individual. It's like Steinar said further up the page, fighting racism with racism (or sexism with sexism, or fire with fire). It turns people away from your movement, creates more negative stereotypes (which should be what you're trying to avoid???) and hurts real, actual people.

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 10:40 PM

hmm

I think we've all said as much as we can do on this. Prejudice is prejudice, yes, but the idea of "fighting racism with racism" is always something that wants to make me curl up into the foetal position because I really struggle to see how people can make that equivalence. If it's bullying you're looking to fight, that's understandable, because bullying is wrong and it needs to go. But when people try and act like "heterophobia", something which is commonly used as a justification for homophobia, or claimed when no such discrimination was occurring, when it's equated to homophobia even though straight people never have to worry about holding hands with their partner in public, they're never introduced to homonormative media or doctrine and there's no such thing as clinics which try and "correct" a person to make them homosexual, they don't have to struggle to find legal marriage, they don't have to worry about "coming out" as straight, they don't have to worry about what their friends and family will think about their sexual orientation, they don't get kicked out simply because their family doesn't agree with them being straight, they're not driven to suicide by the consistent homophobia, homophobic bullying or heteronormative values that are laced throughout our society and culture... Yes, prejudice is wrong, bullying is wrong and they're issues we need to fight. Is a straight person actually getting bullied for being straight? Terrible! Then we better stop it! If that's what you want to call "heterophobia", then please, be my guest, because I totally, totally understand. And I agree, bullying is always an issue and I want to stress that.

But comparing homophobia to so-called heterophobia just doesn't add up. Any discrimination is wrong, I agree, but there's a difference between discrimination happening because someone's being *bleep* and discrimination happening because the world around us is shaped by values that attempt to invalidate the existence of an entire subset of people. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the issue here.

i really needed to get all that off my chest hahahah. I feel much better now. I've said all i can say about this, I don't think I'll be responding anymore... seems cheap, I know, but there's nothing else to be said tbh

Stormy · Feb 04, 2015 10:43 PM

I already said I don't care about which problem is worse and have even acknowledged that, yes, homophobia is more widespread and more of a problem than heterophobia. Why does this have to be a competition of who is hurt more? That's another thing I hate about the current social justice movement. It's always a competition of who has it worse.

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 10:48 PM

Actually, last post, this article is good (maybe language warning, most of the swear words appear to be censored)

http://thoughtcatalog.com/nico-lang/201 … -not-real/

smile

Stormy · Feb 04, 2015 10:56 PM

Thanks for sharing. This article didn't convince me any more than this argument did, though, and actually annoyed me a little with its insinuation that only homophobes would ever use the term "heterophobia" to cover their own homophobia. This is just saying in more aggressive words exactly what you already told me: it's not as bad, so it doesn't exist as an issue.

Steinar · Feb 04, 2015 11:02 PM

The thing is homophobia is normal human behavior, maybe not for animals but for humans its quite normal. Its more the case of discrimination which is the problem in general.

But whether its about liking or not liking something, that itself is a common human behavior.
Its both psychological/biological (When one reaches puberty) and a choice. So both are right in a way.

Last edited by Steinar (Feb 04, 2015 11:09 PM)

SpyroGirl101 · Feb 04, 2015 11:10 PM

I just gotta jump in and ask one thing: why do people call it "homophobia"? That would imply that people who disagree with homosexuality are fearful of homosexual people, which just isn't the case.

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 11:11 PM

SpyroGirl101 wrote:

I just gotta jump in and ask one thing: why do people call it "homophobia"? That would imply that people who disagree with homosexuality are fearful of homosexual people, which just isn't the case.

Yeaaaahhhhh they could have picked a better word but this one just stuck, it's not literally a phobia tho

SpyroGirl101 · Feb 04, 2015 11:13 PM

Ok. I've always wondered that. Thanks for answering my question! Lol.

Steinar · Feb 04, 2015 11:23 PM

Umm... I am just gonna put this here since we already are having a discussion.

But i hear from Pro Gays that since its normal behavior for animals to mate with same species then that means humans should do it too?
Which is a pretty bad argument. That's like saying we should eat poop because animals does it aswell. The thing is humans can choose not to do it, because you are affected by things around you and what people say and do. Unlike animals who live their short life on instincts, they don't ask these types of questions because it simply doesn't exist in the animal world. Only to humans.

There is a good reason why animals isn't homophobic. And that is because they don't know better. Because they can't create a language, spread ideas about what is right and what is not, and not creating laws either. One cannot go to a fox and ask if she or he thinks this is right or wrong. It simply doesn't happen.

That's whats so great about humans. We have evolved into this intellect. That we are aware of this. We can communicate, spread ideas and pass on information through tablets, and then they became books and that's how it went through.

If animals. Was evolved just like us, then trust me they would ask the same questions about right and wrong. And boom... homophobia.

Last edited by Steinar (Feb 04, 2015 11:25 PM)

Flapjacks · Feb 04, 2015 11:39 PM

Steinar wrote:

There is a good reason why animals isn't homophobic. And that is because they don't know better.

The real question here is: what makes being straight correct?

Steinar · Feb 04, 2015 11:48 PM

Flapjacks wrote:

Steinar wrote:
There is a good reason why animals isn't homophobic. And that is because they don't know better.
The real question here is: what makes being straight correct?

Pretty simple. Its biologically natural. We wouldn't be here if it wheren't for mom and dad. Gays are the weak link in that term(Adoption just proves it). Homosexuality in terms of an offspring is biologically unnatural

Last edited by Steinar (Feb 04, 2015 11:49 PM)

Flapjacks · Feb 05, 2015 12:06 AM

Steinar wrote:

Pretty simple. Its biologically natural. We wouldn't be here if it wheren't for mom and dad. Gays are the weak link in that term(Adoption just proves it). Homosexuality in terms of an offspring is biologically unnatural

Who's to say homosexuals want children?
Who's to say heterosexuals want children?

Steinar · Feb 05, 2015 12:26 AM

Flapjacks wrote:

Steinar wrote:
Pretty simple. Its biologically natural. We wouldn't be here if it wheren't for mom and dad. Gays are the weak link in that term(Adoption just proves it). Homosexuality in terms of an offspring is biologically unnatural
Who's to say homosexuals want children?
Who's to say heterosexuals want children?

Good point. But atleast heterosexuals have the ability to have children. Homosexuals cannot.
You asked me why straight was correct. And this is my answer. Its how we are alive today smile

Last edited by Steinar (Feb 05, 2015 12:35 AM)

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