Very important, serious post

Steinar · Jan 30, 2015 3:25 PM

Clock-la wrote:

Steinar wrote:
Hwd45 wrote:
I'm just not a fan of the homophobic stuff but I've never paid attention to the actual show
But what part of the show is homophobic?
Your house called,it wants to know when you'll be back from under your rock?

Not really against homophobia. But so far i have just seen crazy guys doing crazy stuff tongue

RangerOfIthilien · Jan 30, 2015 4:15 PM

The guy has said some controversial things in an interview outside the show, yes, but never on the show itself as far as I'm aware. If you were to stop watching TV shows based on the personal and unrelated opinions and morals of every single person involved in the show, I'm sure you'd never watch TV again.

I don't even watch Duck Dynasty, I just hate that argument

Last edited by RangerOfIthilien (Jan 30, 2015 4:17 PM)

36IStillLikeSpyro36 · Jan 30, 2015 5:07 PM

Gekoncze wrote:

https://scontent-a-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hph … e=5562BF2B

RangerOfIthilien · Jan 30, 2015 6:13 PM

Same

Flapjacks · Jan 31, 2015 7:15 AM

i'm young, black, rich and famous
i got ten dollars hangin' from my anus

Steinar · Jan 31, 2015 12:29 PM

Flapjacks wrote:

i'm young, black, rich and famous
i got ten dollars hangin' from my anus

▼Hidden text

Last edited by Steinar (Jan 31, 2015 8:37 PM)

Mr. John · Feb 03, 2015 12:32 AM

Game awards 2014. Was cool.

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 3:05 PM

KingLambda wrote:

The guy has said some controversial things in an interview outside the show, yes, but never on the show itself as far as I'm aware. If you were to stop watching TV shows based on the personal and unrelated opinions and morals of every single person involved in the show, I'm sure you'd never watch TV again.
I don't even watch Duck Dynasty, I just hate that argument

Well no that's not why I don't watch the show

I just prefer to not watch or support programs where people who repeatedly appear in the show think that I'm sub-human and that I don't deserve the same rights as everyone else. It's frustrating and I have to experience it all the time so I think it's fair that I would avoid something like duck dynasty if I didn't like the people that were in the show

this isn't just about "opinions"

I just prefer to be treated as a human

and I think it's within my free will to choose what I do and don't want to watch based on what the people in the show preach about

hmm

besides, there are plenty of good things to watch (in particular there's a lot of socially-aware tv programs popping up all over the place big_smile ) that don't contain people who are well known for homophobic / racist / misogynistic preaching

Steinar · Feb 04, 2015 4:13 PM

Hwd45 wrote:

KingLambda wrote:
The guy has said some controversial things in an interview outside the show, yes, but never on the show itself as far as I'm aware. If you were to stop watching TV shows based on the personal and unrelated opinions and morals of every single person involved in the show, I'm sure you'd never watch TV again.
I don't even watch Duck Dynasty, I just hate that argument
Well no that's not why I don't watch the show
I just prefer to not watch or support programs where people who repeatedly appear in the show think that I'm sub-human and that I don't deserve the same rights as everyone else. It's frustrating and I have to experience it all the time so I think it's fair that I would avoid something like duck dynasty if I didn't like the people that were in the show
this isn't just about "opinions"
I just prefer to be treated as a human
and I think it's within my free will to choose what I do and don't want to watch based on what the people in the show preach about
besides, there are plenty of good things to watch (in particular there's a lot of socially-aware tv programs popping up all over the place ) that don't contain people who are well known for homophobic / racist / misogynistic preaching

I dunno. I mean i watched "Magic Mike" with some people, and it was the most discusting movie i've ever seen. But that doesn't mean i'm going to make protest march against it or anything.

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 5:02 PM

like I'm not gonna invalidate the whole show because I've never watched it, it's not the show I'm criticising, I'm just making the conscious decision to not support people like that

Steinar · Feb 04, 2015 5:43 PM

I dunno. It seems people who try to force homosexuality in terms of church marriage are just as bigoted against christians and have little respect for theology in general, and is ignorant or don't care about what church is for?. But i am all in full support of "Civil marriage" (Since its non religious in terms of gay marriage) But it can't be called christianity if one can ignore an important rule like that in terms of marriage, when it comes to theology. The only reason to work is if there can be another interpretation of it, but i find it unlikely though.

Last edited by Steinar (Feb 04, 2015 5:44 PM)

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 5:58 PM

Steinar wrote:

I dunno. It seems people who try to force homosexuality in terms of church marriage

I hate it when people use the word "force" like that as if asking for equal rights is a bad thing. Sure, maybe the version of Christianity that you personally believe in may disagree with homosexuality, but not everyone sees it that way. Everyone has their own take on the religion which they believe in and many people strongly believe that anything in the bible which does happen to disagree with homosexuality is "outdated".

Steinar wrote:

are just as bigoted against christians and have little respect for theology in general

So first of all you're assuming that all gay people must be non-christian? Church can be a religious thing but it can also be a secular thing, and marriage is generally understood to have predated religion. Marriage isn't something exclusive to christianity.

Secondly, the word bigoted should be used carefully. Prejudiced is a more acceptable word, but bigoted? There's no system of oppression that negatively affects christians in most of the western world, whereas systems that inhibit gay people are rampant throughout the world. Christians do not have to experience the same things due to their christianity that gay people have to experience because they're gay. It would be insensitive to assume otherwise.

I feel like my comments are always turning the spam section into more serious conversation but like meh

36IStillLikeSpyro36 · Feb 04, 2015 6:02 PM

his point was that the Bible forbids gay marriage, so people shouldn't try to make churches, the ones which follow the Bible, adhere to a different ideology. it's forcing ideals no matter who is doing it to whom.

he also differentiated marriage in a church, and secular marriage - something you also did in an attempt to correct him.

... did you actually read his post? ... you seem to have misunderstood most, if not all of it.

Steinar · Feb 04, 2015 6:12 PM

Hwd45 wrote:

Steinar wrote:
I dunno. It seems people who try to force homosexuality in terms of church marriage
I hate it when people use the word "force" like that as if asking for equal rights is a bad thing. Sure, maybe the version of Christianity that you personally believe in may disagree with homosexuality, but not everyone sees it that way. Everyone has their own take on the religion which they believe in and many people strongly believe that anything in the bible which does happen to disagree with homosexuality is "outdated".
Steinar wrote:
are just as bigoted against christians and have little respect for theology in general
So first of all you're assuming that all gay people must be non-christian? Church can be a religious thing but it can also be a secular thing, and marriage is generally understood to have predated religion. Marriage isn't something exclusive to christianity.
Secondly, the word bigoted should be used carefully. Prejudiced is a more acceptable word, but bigoted? There's no system of oppression that negatively affects christians in most of the western world, whereas systems that inhibit gay people are rampant throughout the world. Christians do not have to experience the same things due to their christianity that gay people have to experience because they're gay. It would be insensitive to assume otherwise.
I feel like my comments are always turning the spam section into more serious conversation but like meh

But people who use "Oh i have my opinions about this too" or " I am a gay christian". I don't care if you are. If you are ignorant about theology in general and just want to use it to benefit your own desires then its not a religion. Its not a club where people can do what they like, its a belief system.

And if you don't care about the bible or marriage in terms of church, then get out of the church. That's all i have to say. Which is why "Civil marriage" is made for those who do not give a hoot about it.

Last edited by Steinar (Feb 04, 2015 6:14 PM)

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 6:49 PM

36IStillLikeSpyro36 wrote:

his point was that the Bible forbids gay marriage, so people shouldn't try to make churches, the ones which follow the Bible, adhere to a different ideology. it's forcing ideals no matter who is doing it to whom.
he also differentiated marriage in a church, and secular marriage - something you also did in an attempt to correct him.
... did you actually read his post? ... you seem to have misunderstood most, if not all of it.

I actually misread his "civil marriage" bit as civil partnership which is a tiny bit different? But the main purpose of my comment was to reiterate that not all christians actually believe that christianity is against same-sex marriage - indeed, I don't think it says anywhere in the bible explicitly that two people of the same gender can't get married. But alas, I am no expert on such things, I cannot claim to have that knowledge.

Steinar wrote:

But people who use "Oh i have my opinions about this too" or " I am a gay christian". I don't care if you are. If you are ignorant about theology in general and just want to use it to benefit your own desires then its not a religion. Its not a club where people can do what they like, its a belief system.
And if you don't care about the bible or marriage in terms of church, then get out of the church. That's all i have to say. Which is why "Civil marriage" is made for those who do not give a hoot about it.

The point I was trying to make is that not all christians - and indeed not all churches - condemn homosexuality and same-sex marriage. I mean, people are allowed to believe in a religion which is anti-gay or whatever, that's their choice. But for many people, any parts in the bible that do happen to mention homosexuality are not regarded as "correct". That's their way of understanding the religion. It's perfectly, perfectly acceptable to be gay and christian, or to be a christian church which accepts same-sex marriage. If some people can pick and choose what they believe in in the bible and others can't then... that's wrong?

As for the "pushing" thing, idk, I mean I get that some churches will stay adamant about their position and remain unaccepting of gay marriage and not much is gonna change that, but if some people want the church to reconsider how they study the bible because they feel like it unjustly excludes them I don't see that as an issue. Homophobia and exclusion of homosexuals is a very big issue and for people to be more offended that some people want to feel more included, whether their attempts are futile or not, than for people to be outright excluded and demonised? I personally think that's a bit iffy hmm

As someone who isn't religious though my opinions don't mean much, but as a gay person I think it's perfectly acceptable for me to point out where I think my rights, or the rights of others like me, are in question. The religion thing is a bizarre topic as their seems to be no right or wrong answer, but I don't see an issue with people criticising.

36IStillLikeSpyro36 · Feb 04, 2015 7:32 PM

Hwd45 wrote:

It's perfectly, perfectly acceptable to be gay and christian

this much is absolutely true. if you seek God, He will hear you no matter what kind of person you are. (of course that still doesn't mean it's okay to, as an example, run around murdering people, but if a murderer wants to repent God will absolutely hear them out and extend a hand, as shown in many former gang members / thieves / etc who turned to Him)

to clarify, straight people are just as guilty as any gay person, there are restrictions on marriage and such that we have as well and many people also don't follow (adultery is forbidden for example), this is one reason why i don't like gay rights discussions, because people point fingers at homosexuals for what they do wrong, while not being willing to face the things other people, including themselves, do wrong. in any discussion where Christianity is involved, it should never have been about gay people specifically which is stereotyping, it should have been about improving our world overall, there are things everybody can improve on no matter what their orientation is

SpyroGirl101 · Feb 04, 2015 7:40 PM

36IStillLikeSpyro36 wrote:

Hwd45 wrote:
It's perfectly, perfectly acceptable to be gay and christian
this much is absolutely true. if you seek God, He will hear you no matter what kind of person you are. (of course that still doesn't mean it's okay to, as an example, run around murdering people, but if a murderer wants to repent God will absolutely hear them out and extend a hand, as shown in many former gang members / thieves / etc who turned to Him)
to clarify, straight people are just as guilty as any gay person, there are restrictions on marriage and such that we have as well and many people also don't follow (adultery is forbidden for example), this is one reason why i don't like gay rights discussions, because people point fingers at homosexuals for what they do wrong, while not being willing to face the things other people, including themselves, do wrong. in any discussion where Christianity is involved, it should never have been about gay people specifically which is stereotyping, it should have been about improving our world overall, there are things everybody can improve on no matter what their orientation is

God absolutely will hear you if you seek Him. No matter what kind of person you are. He changes lives in awesome ways.

Last edited by SpyroGirl101 (Feb 04, 2015 7:46 PM)

Steinar · Feb 04, 2015 8:33 PM

Hwd45 wrote:

36IStillLikeSpyro36 wrote:
his point was that the Bible forbids gay marriage, so people shouldn't try to make churches, the ones which follow the Bible, adhere to a different ideology. it's forcing ideals no matter who is doing it to whom.
he also differentiated marriage in a church, and secular marriage - something you also did in an attempt to correct him.
... did you actually read his post? ... you seem to have misunderstood most, if not all of it.
I actually misread his "civil marriage" bit as civil partnership which is a tiny bit different? But the main purpose of my comment was to reiterate that not all christians actually believe that christianity is against same-sex marriage - indeed, I don't think it says anywhere in the bible explicitly that two people of the same gender can't get married. But alas, I am no expert on such things, I cannot claim to have that knowledge.
Steinar wrote:
But people who use "Oh i have my opinions about this too" or " I am a gay christian". I don't care if you are. If you are ignorant about theology in general and just want to use it to benefit your own desires then its not a religion. Its not a club where people can do what they like, its a belief system.
And if you don't care about the bible or marriage in terms of church, then get out of the church. That's all i have to say. Which is why "Civil marriage" is made for those who do not give a hoot about it.
The point I was trying to make is that not all christians - and indeed not all churches - condemn homosexuality and same-sex marriage. I mean, people are allowed to believe in a religion which is anti-gay or whatever, that's their choice. But for many people, any parts in the bible that do happen to mention homosexuality are not regarded as "correct". That's their way of understanding the religion. It's perfectly, perfectly acceptable to be gay and christian, or to be a christian church which accepts same-sex marriage. If some people can pick and choose what they believe in in the bible and others can't then... that's wrong?
As for the "pushing" thing, idk, I mean I get that some churches will stay adamant about their position and remain unaccepting of gay marriage and not much is gonna change that, but if some people want the church to reconsider how they study the bible because they feel like it unjustly excludes them I don't see that as an issue. Homophobia and exclusion of homosexuals is a very big issue and for people to be more offended that some people want to feel more included, whether their attempts are futile or not, than for people to be outright excluded and demonised? I personally think that's a bit iffy
As someone who isn't religious though my opinions don't mean much, but as a gay person I think it's perfectly acceptable for me to point out where I think my rights, or the rights of others like me, are in question. The religion thing is a bizarre topic as their seems to be no right or wrong answer, but I don't see an issue with people criticising.

I am pretty sure "Paul the apostle" condemned homosexuality in the new testament. I know christians are not abided to the law of moses, but homosexuality in general is considered a sin, seeing it as sexual immorality. I'd love to hear what their interpretation is based upon or hear one debate about it. I just smell LGBT political pushy propaganda on this whole thing to be honest, and i'm no fan of them.

Heterophobia exists, but its in very small minority among gays. So its pretty normal to like and dislike something, thats kinda natural

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 8:47 PM

Steinar wrote:

I am pretty sure "Paul the apostle" condemned homosexuality in the new testament. I know christians are not abided to the law of moses, but homosexuality in general is considered a sin, seeing it as sexual immorality. I'd love to hear what their interpretation is based upon or hear one debate about it. I just smell LGBT political pushy propaganda on this whole thing to be honest, and i'm no fan of them.
Heterophobia exists, but its in very small minority among gays. So its pretty normal to like and dislike something, thats kinda natural

Homosexuality is condemned a few times but theologians often note that the bible doesn't explicitly condemn it, but rather what is said is often interpreted as referring to homosexuality (e.g. "man should not lie with man as he does with woman"), and so it's often noted that in modern bibles any passages are really just interpretations and translations of older bibles, but over time the content of the bible has changed and is often edited to fit the current cultural beliefs regarding what the passage is referring to - many modern bibles actually do explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin where older bibles may not have. I don't think gay marriage is ever mentioned though, though the bible does often refer to marriage being between one man and one woman.

As for "heterophobia", it's (objectively) not a thing. Prejudice towards straight people? Sure, if that's what you mean then sure, but as a system of oppression it doesn't exist. Lots of society, social constructs and things we experience in day-to-day life is built on top of structural oppression such as homophobia and removing them from society takes a very, very long time, unfortunately. Homophobia is much much more than simple prejudice. Structural, systemic and institutionalised oppression is the result of prejudice and power coming together.

Last edited by Hwd45 (Feb 04, 2015 8:49 PM)

Stormy · Feb 04, 2015 8:49 PM

Wasn't going to get involved in this, but...

Hwd45 wrote:

As for the "pushing" thing, idk, I mean I get that some churches will stay adamant about their position and remain unaccepting of gay marriage and not much is gonna change that, but if some people want the church to reconsider how they study the bible because they feel like it unjustly excludes them I don't see that as an issue. Homophobia and exclusion of homosexuals is a very big issue and for people to be more offended that some people want to feel more included, whether their attempts are futile or not, than for people to be outright excluded and demonised? I personally think that's a bit iffy

Trying to get people to reconsider isn't (or shouldn't be) an issue; that's just basic freedom of speech. Obviously, anyone can try to convince anyone of anything they want.

The issue is when force comes into play. No one is forcing gay couples to be customers of businesses that don't want to serve them, and no one is forcing them to follow any religion that won't marry them. But people are actively using government force to get private businesses to serve them when they could instead give their money to a business that would serve them willingly. And people are worried that if this can be done to businesses, it won't be long before it can be done to religions as well.

This force thing goes for both sides of this debate, by the way. I don't agree with the government banning gay marriage, either.

Also, just have to add another +1 to 36's last post.

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 8:57 PM

I shouldnt have started this

Stormy · Feb 04, 2015 8:57 PM

Hwd45 wrote:

As for "heterophobia", it's (objectively) not a thing. Prejudice towards straight people? Sure, if that's what you mean then sure, but as a system of oppression it doesn't exist. Lots of society, social constructs and things we experience in day-to-day life is built on top of structural oppression such as homophobia and removing them from society takes a very, very long time, unfortunately. Homophobia is much much more than simple prejudice. Structural, systemic and institutionalised oppression is the result of prejudice and power coming together.

I don't really care if it's a thing or not, but I am getting tired of hearing this "system of oppression" argument with regards to definitions of words. Nowhere in the definition of homophobia does it say there has to be structural oppression. Same thing when people say "racism against white people doesn't exist" or "misandry doesn't exist." We could argue all day about who is and isn't oppressed, but I don't see why social justice always gets to redefine words to serve its purposes. Can't you just say that heterophobia isn't as big of an issue as homophobia, at least?

Swaffy · Feb 04, 2015 9:00 PM

Hwd45 wrote:

That's their way of understanding the religion. It's perfectly, perfectly acceptable to be gay and christian, or to be a christian church which accepts same-sex marriage.

You can't be any more false.

Nuff said. God doesn't like homosexuality or marriage of same-sex. Period.

People tend to take a small part of the Bible out of context and base their arguments from that. But we all should know context is often misleading. You can't take a single stroke of a painting as being the painting itself.

Last edited by Swaffy (Feb 04, 2015 9:01 PM)

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 9:02 PM

Stormy wrote:

Can't you just say that heterophobia isn't as big of an issue as homophobia, at least?

Well I mean that kind of follows from the "system of oppression" argument. I get that it does seem like a redefinition of words but it's more about understanding that some social issues are fabricated and some are legitimate. Being prejudiced is never nice and if you're simply referring to prejudice when talking about either heterophobia or homophobia then that's fine. But it does frustrate a lot of people when people try to talk about something like social justice and something like "heterophobia" comes up - it just doesn't seem "mature", because it's just not really a social issue. At all hmm but it's generally easier to say "it's not as big of an issue", though often people avoid saying that because it still implies there's some issue to it where no issue realistically exists.

Hwd45 · Feb 04, 2015 9:04 PM

Swaffy wrote:

Hwd45 wrote:
That's their way of understanding the religion. It's perfectly, perfectly acceptable to be gay and christian, or to be a christian church which accepts same-sex marriage.
You can't be any more false.
http://oi57.tinypic.com/2w5nbs9.jpg
Nuff said. God doesn't like homosexuality or marriage of same-sex. Period.
People tend to take a small part of the Bible out of context and base their arguments from that. But we all should know context is often misleading. You can't take a single stroke of a painting as being the painting itself.

Not saying that the bible says nothing about homosexuals tongue though a lot of people do pick and choose, for example many people will use that leviticus quote but ignore the bit where it mentions using clothes made of two different fabrics. Or the fact that leviticus is for people of jewish faith and not christian. Or that that passage, allegedly, is not even referring to homosexuality (I mean it's a bit vague right?)

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