Do you believe in Global Warming?

ratchet · Nov 15, 2008 12:54 PM

eh, i'm doing a speech for school at the end of the month about how global warming is overated. I've hired some DVDs but this argument is very intense. i mean i watched "the inconvenient truth" and that sort of looked grim for me. then i watched "the great global warming swindle" and that gave me a whole lot of points but i looked the movie up on wikipedia and it turns out that the movie has faults. I still am a big sceptic. If you look at the long term graphics, you can see that our warming is not really that bad but if you look at the short term ones, then yeah...

Does everyone know the most recent graphs?

so anyway, do you believe in global warming, i mean global warming is created by humans? i DO believe the earth is heating up, but not caused by CO2!

Paranoia · Nov 15, 2008 1:21 PM

Yeah, I watched a couple things about Global Warming. I'm not really sure what to think about the whole thing, but the earth goes through periods of time when temperatures change. Co2 probably isn't great for the environment, but causing global warming, I'm not really sure.

Oh yeah, and I saw that 'Inconvenient Truth' movie. I kind of lost all respect for it when it went on the talk about how unfair the Bush vs. Gore election was...:roll eyes:

Hobsyllwin · Nov 15, 2008 2:49 PM

I do believe in global warming. Temperature shifts have occurred in the past, but never this quickly, typically over millions of years. Then you also have the fact that, like it or not, CO2 is one of the major greenhouse gases, and one of the gases that we use in most of our technology.
Even if, somehow, global warming is not occurring, that doesn't change the fact that we should be trying to do something. The ice caps are melting and the climate is shifting, although not necessarily all upwards. We're more likely to see crazy temperature changes, such as it being in the 20's one day, then the 80's the next. Another thing to look out for is an increased rate of powerful storms, which has been happening.

Fletch_Talon · Nov 15, 2008 3:10 PM

well the globe is getting warmer so yes, i spose that doesnt mean the world will end, it also doesnt necessarily mean CO2 is the cause

so lets focus on what we do know

we know CO2 isnt good for he environment, it might not destroy it completely, but it is doing it harm

we know we're still letting deforestation run rampant despite the fact that trees and vegetation are one of the ways CO2 and O2 are recycled, thus supplying us with renewable supplies of clean breathable air

we know that oil is not a renewable resource, and because supplies are decreasing, prices are going up

we know of many different energy sources that are renewable and some of the reasons why we arent using them are ridiculous (oooh the wind turbines dont look pretty enough)

thats how i look at it anyway, whether global warming is an issue or not, we still need to do something about fossil fuels

Aicebo · Nov 15, 2008 4:10 PM

Humans are not the cause of global warming. Sure, you can try to make the earth healthier, but it's not going to stop the global warming. The earth will do what it wants. It's just like the ice ages. Humans didn't cause those, of course, the earth did.

Kamineko · Nov 15, 2008 8:02 PM

There's quite frankly no denying that we're causing the current trend of global warming. Though you can say "ohhhhhhhh but we can only go by RECORDED history, there could have been shifts like this before that we just didn't keep track of!" but that's like saying "oh there have been a BUNCH of car accidents before, so you can't say this one was caused because the driver was drunk!"

Now the effect it's having can be exaggerated, but you can't try to say the millions of cubic feet of pollution we put out every day isn't effecting the environment. I mean we still have that pretty hole in the ozone layer.

Basically, the only thing you can argue is that the effects are being blown out of proportion, but humans effecting global warming is pretty much a given. But you can't say like, "it's not PROVEN" because in the world of science, "proof" has many interpretations. It's like how things like evolution, or even GRAVITY are technically only "theories", but just about everyone knows they're real.

Stormy · Nov 15, 2008 8:14 PM

I think that a lot of it is being caused by humans, but a good deal of it could be natural as well. That doesn't mean we should just sit back and say, "Oh well, this isn't my fault, who cares," but it also doesn't mean "Ohnoes the world is going to end!!!"

DDR_Maniac wrote:

Oh yeah, and I saw that 'Inconvenient Truth' movie. I kind of lost all respect for it when it went on the talk about how unfair the Bush vs. Gore election was...:rolleyes:

Hahaha, yeah. I was watching the movie in Biology class thinking, yeah, this is believable. Then he started going on a rant about his life and how he lost the election. Lost quite a bit of credibility with me.

bmah · Nov 15, 2008 10:17 PM

As Hobsyllwin has mentioned already, global warming has happened several times in the past, but it's the rate of acceleration of global warming that really made this last 200 years or so quite significant. We're in an "interglacial" period, meaning a period in time where glaciers are retreating from a temporary warming up of the Earth. I think there's no real debate in regards to humans' contribution to this warming; the facts are out there, and quite glaringly so. Denying the facts is ignorance, and does not become a matter of opinion anymore.
As for An Inconvenient Truth, Al Gore has real facts but presents the subject in a doomsdayish way to persuade people (i.e. low cognitive persuasion). It's a more effective tactic to grab the emotions of the masses rather than only using logic of argument.

ps. ratchet, other sources of heating such as geothermal heat contributes very little to overall global warming

RaidonMakoto · Nov 15, 2008 10:51 PM

The question is no longer "Do you believe in Global Warming?" Global Warming is a fact. The question that should be asked is "Are you doing anything to help curb Global Warming's advancement?"

bmah · Nov 15, 2008 11:03 PM

RaidonMakoto wrote:

"Are you doing anything to help curb Global Warming's advancement?"

I've addressed this question earlier in the "pollution" thread.

N.B. Earth Day doesn't count - it just makes people think they're helping the environment by turning off their lights on that day and patting themselves on the back.

Spyro_Loves_Me · Nov 16, 2008 6:53 AM

Yep, I believe we're part of the reason for global warming. I don't think there's going to be any stopping to global warming either.
But there is a plus. We're slowly but surely making progress towards reducing it. Now if we could only find a way to make all those green appliances, green cars, and green houses affordable ...

ratchet · Nov 17, 2008 1:35 PM

eh, it seems that i'm really outnumbered, so i wont try to debate with anyone here... i havn't done as much research as lots of other people anyway.

A Guy · Nov 17, 2008 10:56 PM

I think global warming is real, however, I think scaring young children that cannot do anything to help is pointless scaremongering. I think that you should only start scaring people with the concept of global warming once they are of an age where they have the ability to do something. Sure, you should teach little children to recycle, but it's not until they're about middle-school aged where they are capable of organizing something to help in the recycling effort.

I dunno how to put what I'm saying into words very well... I'll wait for someone to flame me and then answer their questions.

Fletch_Talon · Nov 18, 2008 1:24 AM

A Guy wrote:

I think global warming is real, however, I think scaring young children that cannot do anything to help is pointless scaremongering. I think that you should only start scaring people with the concept of global warming once they are of an age where they have the ability to do something. Sure, you should teach little children to recycle, but it's not until they're about middle-school aged where they are capable of organizing something to help in the recycling effort.
I dunno how to put what I'm saying into words very well... I'll wait for someone to flame me and then answer their questions.

*puts matches away*

seriously though, youre more likely to get flamed if you provoke people like that, i thought youd have figured that out by now.

as for youre point, its somewhat valid, id argue however that lessons are more easily learned when theyre taught at a young age, hence the reason we teach morals among other things to young kids even though they might not be totally relevant until later in life

A Guy · Nov 18, 2008 1:53 AM

I figured that I'd be flamed no matter what I said as long as it was an opinion, so I decided to acknowledge that. Anyways, might as well not dwell on it any longer.

bmah · Nov 18, 2008 6:11 AM

ratchet wrote:

eh, it seems that i'm really outnumbered, so i wont try to debate with anyone here... i havn't done as much research as lots of other people anyway.

Well from what you said in the past, it seems like your opinion is mainly supported by the fact that "nothing seems to be changing" - and in reality you're only thinking of the short term.

@A Guy: I think showing the reality of things is more important than being afraid of "scaring away" little kids from doomsday scenarios as proposed by ecologists and environmentalists. While little kids might not be able to immediately do their own part in conservation (well, they actually can e.g. turn off the lights as you leave the room!), it's never too early to get them into the right mindsets - kinda like what Fletch is saying.

Sora · Nov 19, 2008 12:16 AM

Yes. But humans can't take all the blame, we just helped.

bmah · Nov 19, 2008 12:54 AM

That's a really poor excuse. Humans are to blame for the acceleration in global warming 100%. Any other natural factors can't be "accounted for" in fault. Look at the facts before saying something like that; it sounds like you undermine the whole situation.

saphira17 · Nov 19, 2008 1:34 AM

I don't really understand all of this Global Warming stuff, but from what Ive heard, there is no real proof that the earth is actually getting wamer, it's all just speculation. And if the earth is getting warmer, this sure seems to be a pretty cold winter where I am... Can someone fill me in on what exactly consists with global warming?

bmah · Nov 19, 2008 3:56 AM

As I said before, there's absolute evidence of global warming. It's no question that it can happen at all; it happens naturally in what we call an "interglacial period" (the converse of this being glacial maximums, which characterize the Ice Age). The remarkable thing about this interglacial as opposed to other ones in the past is that, ever since the Industrial Revolution, humans became capable of producing a massive amount of output with less effort, and much of this output is pollution - this accelerated the rate of overall global warming. The sudden spike in the rate of global warming is what is alarming. In addition, this also creates a chain of natural events that further speeds up this process. For example, thousands-of-years-old CO2 bubbles trapped in Arctic and Antarctic ice are being released from the melting of ice. There's a huge amount of CO2 gas sequestered into ancient glacial ice and ice sheets.

Global warming increases the probability of adverse weather. This does not necessarily equate to warmer temperatures (and also, you're thinking in the very short term saphira). A very cold winter is an example of unusual adverse weather. Other examples include the number of hurricanes and tornadoes, droughts, etc. There has been more than a fair share of studies on global warming - it is far, far from speculation. It's still called global warming because there's a predicted increase of about 1-4 degrees celsius in regards to the global climate. For the best proof, go live in the Arctic for a while. You just cannot ignore the evidence out there.

Fletch_Talon · Nov 19, 2008 11:22 AM

bmah wrote:

That's a really poor excuse. Humans are to blame for the acceleration in global warming 100%. Any other natural factors can't be "accounted for" in fault. Look at the facts before saying something like that; it sounds like you undermine the whole situation.

especially since nature has a rather efficient recycling system

animals expell CO2 -> trees use CO2 -> trees expell O2 -> animals use O2

wash rinse repeat, since we humans came around however

animals + factories + excessive numbers of cattle due to farming expell CO2 -> fewer trees due to deforestation use CO2 -> etc.

of course thats just my understanding of it, might not be 100% accurate

ratchet · Nov 19, 2008 12:36 PM

bmah wrote:

ratchet wrote:
eh, it seems that i'm really outnumbered, so i wont try to debate with anyone here... i havn't done as much research as lots of other people anyway.
Well from what you said in the past, it seems like your opinion is mainly supported by the fact that "nothing seems to be changing" - and in reality you're only thinking of the short term.

Oh i know that in the last century the temperature has gotton warmer, and has changed, but the temperature always changes. We saw a spike as high as the one in the last century in the medievil warming period.

And the hockey stick since the Inconvenient truth has been proven wrong and a new graph has come out showing the REAL temperature change.

There are many many things that disprove global warming, and many things that were spoken about In the Inconvenient truth have now been proven wrong.

And it has also been proven that CO2 has not caused temperature change at all, infact, temperature change has vbeen proven to cause C02, in an 800 year lag. Ofcource, that's not to say the recent spike of CO2 is not caused by the medievil warming period 800 years ago, but the fact that the recent C02 emissions (in the last 100 years) has caused the sudden spike is wrong WRONG. It is also true that between the 40s and 70s, when C02 emissions really spiked, the temperature was going DOWN. So where's the connection here? Actually, this going down in temeperature caused panic around the world thinking they would go into another ice age! I'll get to that later.

So therefore, the whole concept of humans causing global warming is wrong.
As for the glaciers melting and all that crap, there wasa little ice ago a few centuries ago when many lakes and mountains freezed over, we are just recovering from that! The sea level is rising, by like 1 inch a year, it's not like it's going to come as a tsunami. Global warming will not kill off polar bears, evidence has shown it has been much warmer but polar bears have still survived.

Back to CO2, did you know that humans only amit 10% of the total CO2, most is caused by fires and stuff. C02 ios only one of the many green house gasses, and is only 0.54% of the total greenhouse gasses, water vapour, a very useful greenhouse gas, being 95% of the total greenhouse gasses. NOT TO MENTION that greenhouse gasses make up a very very small amount of our Atmosphere. Simply there isn't enough % of the CO2 that we make to cause a major temperature swing!

Also on CO2, people like to say "if CO2 doesn't cause the temperature to go up, it will surely do other things such as not make us breathe." well that's true, if there is too much C02 in the air it will surely kill us. But scientific studies have proven that C02 has been 100 times more in our atmosphere before and still then, life existed, and the plants loved it. More healthy plants, more 02 and so it was balanced out. Ofcource today is not the same, seeing We are causing much deforestation, but i defiently are against deforestation, and i'm doing my bit to recycle and stuff.

So really:
Deforestation- REAL, asomething needs to be done
Polution- A BIG problem, something needs to be done otherwise we will look like china or worse
Human Made Global warming-Fake!! do not listen to Al gore, it is all HYPE!

I mean, there is also the fact that 30 years ago scientists and commities were really pushing that the world was going to freeze over. Like today, it was a big panic. this was being taught in schools and the media was all over it. Then when they suddenly "decided" that the world was heating up, the curriculumn changed and news paper reports suddenly changed again. It's like The world HAS to have some kind of Global threat to wory about otherwise it wouldn't run.

So if Humans arn't causing Global warming, what is? Well some graphs say the sun, some say the curents, some say cloud cover. But just because there is no proof that Humans ARN'T causing global warming, doesn't mean they ARE.

The only reason lots of people believe in this is because the media has been really pumping this belief. Not to mention it's been taught at schools . Al gore has also won a nobel piece prize, which made a lot opf people say "if he won that kind of awrd, he's GOTTA be right"
Gore does not deserve that award! People also say that because the IPCC has 2500 "scientists" supporting global warming it must be real. Well in fact, most of these people are not scientists at all, and actually activists. Like people from greenpeace who just looka t one side of the evidence and make a conclusion! Not all of IPCC even SUPPORTS global warming, lots are there simply because they study it! In fact, there are many scientists who disput global warming, unlike what Al Gore says.
heres an internet link of 30, 000 american scientists potition against global warming:
http://oism.org/pproject/

Believe me guys. In 30 years, i'll be the one sitting here and saying "i told you so"

Phoenix_Flyer · Nov 19, 2008 3:59 PM

Give it 30 years and that's when you can really back up those quotes, ratchet. Global Warming is technically the wrong word for it. It should be called Climate Change. If the temperatures go up and the ice caps melt. The Gulf Stream will stop and the UK will have temperatures like Northern Canada.
Evidence for increasing temperatures is everywhere in the UK. Just look at the poor Puffins.

bmah · Nov 20, 2008 2:09 AM

ratchet wrote:

Oh i know that in the last century the temperature has gotton warmer, and has changed, but the temperature always changes. We saw a spike as high as the one in the last century in the medievil warming period.
And it has also been proven that CO2 has not caused temperature change at all, infact, temperature change has vbeen proven to cause C02, in an 800 year lag. Ofcource, that's not to say the recent spike of CO2 is not caused by the medievil warming period 800 years ago, but the fact that the recent C02 emissions (in the last 100 years) has caused the sudden spike is wrong WRONG. It is also true that between the 40s and 70s, when C02 emissions really spiked, the temperature was going DOWN. So where's the connection here? Actually, this going down in temeperature caused panic around the world thinking they would go into another ice age! I'll get to that later.
So therefore, the whole concept of humans causing global warming is wrong.

The Medieval Warming Period is an interstadial, which is basically a mini warming period. This is part of the natural cycle of glacial and deglaciation, but it does not explain the sudden spike in CO2 emissions.
In addition to this cycle, there are local processes that can modify temperature change. For example, the lack of sunspots in a given time period may help result in a cooling period. So a small dip in temperatures in the 40s-70s doesn't really make a strong argument against the entire issue of global warming.
And of course the earth may very well go into another ice age since I did mention that this is a natural cycle.

ratchet wrote:

As for the glaciers melting and all that crap, there wasa little ice ago a few centuries ago when many lakes and mountains freezed over, we are just recovering from that! The sea level is rising, by like 1 inch a year, it's not like it's going to come as a tsunami. Polar bears won't die. Evidence has shown that the polar bear amount has been increasing, not to mention that the planet has been much warmer before and Polar bears have survived easily.

Ah, yes, the Little Ice Age. We've well recovered from that small period, which lasted for a few centuries until the beginning of the 1900s. But you're missing the point. Ever since the Industrial Revolution, the amount of pollution and (adverse weather) exponentially increased. We're not worried about the differences in climate of the past; we're currently concerned on the rate of climate change to a warming trend.

Also, please don't pull information out of your...well yeah, since there is no evidence that polar bear populations are increasing - either that, or your sources are very questionable in comparison to 99% of the data out there on the well-being of polar bears.

ratchet wrote:

Back to CO2, did you know that humans only amit 10% of the total CO2, most is caused by fires and stuff. C02 ios only one of the many green house gasses, and is only 0.54% of the total greenhouse gasses, water vapour, a very useful greenhouse gas, being 95% of the total greenhouse gasses. NOT TO MENTION that greenhouse gasses make up a very very small amount of our Atmosphere. Simply there isn't enough % of the CO2 that we make to cause a major temperature swing!

And most of the fires are caused by humans, at least in an indirect way. For example, humans are increasing the chance for adverse weather such as the increase of storm systems, and that increases the amount of lightning and hence the chances of a lightning strike on a forest.

You're right that water vapor comprises about 95% of all greenhouse gases - without it, the Earth would be cold and lifeless. But you've failed to mention the varying effectiveness of these gases on the greenhouse effect. According to wikipedia, the large percentage of H20 in the air causes 36-70% of the greenhouse effect. According to your data, CO2 comprises only ~0.54% of all greenhouse gases but it is responsible for 9-26% of the greenhouse effect alone!

ratchet wrote:

Also on CO2, people like to say "if CO2 doesn't cause the temperature to go up, it will surely do other things such as not make us breathe." well that's true, if there is too much C02 in the air it will surely kill us. But scientific studies have proven that C02 has been 100 times more in our atmosphere before and still then, life existed, and the plants loved it. More healthy plants, more 02 and so it was balanced out. Ofcource today is not the same, seeing We are causing much deforestation, but i defiently are against deforestation, and i'm doing my bit to recycle and stuff.

Again, you're missing the point. Don't refer to past examples of a warmer global climate as indication that humans aren't responsible; we're talking about the rate of warming here. The warming of the earth is accelerating at an unbelievable pace, and the spike is right when the Industrial Revolution occurs - wonder why.

And good for you that you recycle! smile

ratchet wrote:

So really:
Deforestation- REAL, asomething needs to be done
Polution- A BIG problem, something needs to be done otherwise we will look like china or worse
Human Made Global warming-Fake!! do not listen to Al gore, it is all HYPE!

That is the point. Global warming is real, and hyping people up is a quicker way of having people in the right mindset. Al Gore just used a common but effective tactic by dramatizing the potential effects of global warming.

ratchet wrote:

So if Humans arn't causing Global warming, what is? Well some graphs say the sun, some say the curents, some say cloud cover. But just because there is no proof that Humans ARN'T causing global warming, doesn't mean they ARE.

Overused, but really ineffective argument. You can use this kind of tactic to an argument you make on any subject.

ratchet wrote:

People also say that because the IPCC has 2500 "scientists" supporting global warming it must be real. Well in fact, most of these people are not scientists at all, and actually activists.

The activists back up their support from the findings made by scientists. It's really easy to conceive activists as just annoying pests who do nothing but complaining (well according to the economists' and politicians' standpoint), but injecting the issues into politics is a very effective and sometimes only way of getting the world's attention.

To sum things up, you do mention a lot of instances in which there are apparent shortcomings to the global warming issue, but you gotta look into the cogs and wheels first - are these facts really supportive? Logic? Reasoning behind certain proposals on the issue? etc.
Do some more research please. You'll also save me an hour from typing this.

saphira17 · Nov 20, 2008 2:49 AM

I think I'm kinda agreeing with ratchet. I don't know alot about the subject, but what he's saying makes sense. I don't think global warming is caused just by, or mainly by humans, nor do I think there will be a major global warming. Just like bmah said "Global warming increases the probability of adverse weather." ( sorry idk how to quote) Which would mean it's not REALLY global warming, just like Phoenix_Flyer said, it should be called a Climate Change.

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