Discussion on webcomics/art, and the critique or bashing of them.

raven · Sep 29, 2008 6:02 AM

Kazoobie64 (in [url=http://www.spyroforum.com/topic-6726-240.html]this thread[/url]) wrote:

By the way, an experienced artist knows when to distinguish critique from bashing, and knows what suggestions to go through and which to actually use.

I believe a well rounded critique with both the positive and negative points of the work, is often the best critique.
I usually define comments as constructive criticism if they give a good justification for why they criticize it the way they do, but if they just randomly put it down/insult it immaturely without words for improvement, that's when it is 'bashing'. What do you's think?

One of my good friends is a british guy who, on the very first day I met, the very moment I met him, he tore my art to pieces and even kind of made a harsh remark at my person. (He said I was "pathetically insecure" because I kept going back and forth between styles as seen in my animation portfolio.) But I didn't care, because I was used to it, and because I knew he wasn't intending to insult me personally.

True, but that still sounds hard to stomach anyway, lol. It's sometimes hard to shelve pride for the sake of improving art

Kazoobie64 · Sep 29, 2008 1:32 PM

raven wrote:

I usually define comments as constructive criticism if they give a good justification for why they criticize it the way they do, but if they just randomly put it down/insult it immaturely without words for improvement, that's when it is 'bashing'. What do you's think?

Yup, that would be bashing. Though I usually ask them to give a reason, just in case. Back in Deviantart I used to get bashing all the time, and when I would ask them why, a lot of them would go " I DON'T LIKE THIS PAIRING!!!!" or something like that. LOL, people...

One of my good friends is a british guy who, on the very first day I met, the very moment I met him, he tore my art to pieces and even kind of made a harsh remark at my person. (He said I was "pathetically insecure" because I kept going back and forth between styles as seen in my animation portfolio.) But I didn't care, because I was used to it, and because I knew he wasn't intending to insult me personally.
True, but that still sounds hard to stomach anyway, lol. It's sometimes hard to shelve pride for the sake of improving art

Yeah, but unfortunately it's something you must get used to if you're going into the art world. The first thing your professors will tell you is to put away your pride, and never think of your drawings as perfect. They do this because a lot of critique is going to come your way whether you like it or not, and you must be ready for it. Then again, I don't know what the methods of other colleges are, I go to one of the best in the state that has produced some well-known artists, so I'm just going by their methods.

I know some of us who are taught that way often forget that there's people out there who think our drawings are perfect, so it's a hard psychological training to master, but you got to know where and when to use it. I took a painting home once to my parents, who loved it so much they hung it up in their living room. I'm always proud to look at it when I go into their house, but when I brought that painting in class, (it was an assignment) the professors wouldn't stop telling me how wrong my perspective was. There is no such thing as abstraction art in a classroom teaching you technique, unfortunately, haha.

Antr the Rolf · Sep 29, 2008 2:10 PM

usually a critique(such as me)would try to say some words of encoruagement..but never say like.."it needs a bit more shading"etc...I'd say keep at it..just try to keep up what you're doing and you'll become better..but critques I've seen..usually are like..hating of someone elses but love's their friends' works better..and theirs may beworse or just the same as how you do yours..

ontels · Sep 29, 2008 4:08 PM

Antr the Rolf wrote:

usually a critique(such as me)would try to say some words of encoruagement..but never say like.."it needs a bit more shading"etc...I'd say keep at it..just try to keep up what you're doing and you'll become better..but critques I've seen..usually are like..hating of someone elses but love's their friends' works better..and theirs may beworse or just the same as how you do yours..

if you say that then the artist will never inprove

Kazoobie64 · Sep 29, 2008 4:32 PM

Yeah, but some people are just afraid to burst the bubbles of people that are proud of their work, which is a shame. There's been many artists around here that have something about their artwork that bothers me, but if I mention it to try and help them I know everyone is going to think I'm an *bleep* anyway. sad

ontels · Sep 29, 2008 4:39 PM

the rare times I do visit the art thread I allways tell them what I think

Antr the Rolf · Sep 29, 2008 5:42 PM

yeah..Its just someting..I just cant look at others art..dont know why..and even if I weere to say somethign..I'd probably be thought of other wise...though I COULD give tutorials..my dA and my art is great but..you dont see many people on here like that..with astounding art.

Kamineko · Sep 29, 2008 8:16 PM

The vast majority of webcomics suck because any schmoe can make one.

A Guy · Sep 29, 2008 8:54 PM

I like OOTS. While panel layout could be a nice side feature, the main thing I look for in a comic is its story and how dynamic it is.

Kamineko · Sep 29, 2008 9:32 PM

Atresac wrote:

The vast majority of webcomics suck because any schmoe can make one.

actually I've been considering making my own webcomic lately ahhhhhh rarararararara

gonna wait til I get a new laptop/some decent art supplies first.

Kazoobie64 · Sep 29, 2008 9:47 PM

YOU SUCK, WEBCOMICS SUCK, YOUR COMIC WILL SUCK IF YOU PUT IT ON THE WEB.

Just kidding, but know I'll have the right to critique it. big_smile It's tough love for a fellow artist.

Kamineko · Sep 29, 2008 10:09 PM

Ahhhhh I've gotten it before. Two years ago I made this really terrible webcomic on drunkduck for a week or so. Pleanty of people actually liked it and I got some heavy-duty views, but then I realized how much it sucked and was like "aaaaahhhhhh delete this stuff".

Now it exists only in my pictures folder, never to see the light of day again.

Fletch_Talon · Sep 29, 2008 11:01 PM

Kazoobie64 wrote:

Cry some more.

Bravo, youve just shown the kind of immaturity id expect from someone who deems insults an appropriate and helpful form of criticism

Aw, a false misogynistic assumption, how cute.

youre a girl - true
youre offended by the word funbags - true, or at least that is how it appears

im not seeing the false, maybe the assumption, but i spose it is cute, almost as cute as your little stab at my masculinity, but then again i guess im just not a man if i think unprovoked insults are bad

Fletch_Talon wrote:
its like trying to tell an art snob that abstract art is all crap (it is by the way)
Oh christ, how many contradictions can there be in a single phrase? My brain cells are dying trying to figure out what this even means.

that says more about your ability to comprehend rather simple sentences than anything else but heres the rundown for you

youre the art snob, abstract art is insulting critique, and crap is a euphemism meaning faecal matter

in other words you are unable to accept the prospect that you might be wrong, now i spose it could be argued that im in the same boat, however if you can prove that personally insulting someone makes them improve more than what just giving advice does (good luck by the way) then i might consider swaying my opinion a bit

Why are you arguing with me if you haven't done your research?

let me rephrase then

i read a number of webcomics and none of the authors have displayed those qualities, as i said, if someone comes in with helpful critique then it depends on the authors level of activity on the forums, often there wont be a response, but its usually because they dont spend much time on there at all

but regardless of whether they respond or not, youre going to "catch more flies with honey" so to speak

heres a scenario, hypothetical of course:
Spyroforum starts having a lot of downtime, posts are messing up and links are broken

do you say:

a)hey screw you SR, what the hell is wrong the forums, get off your *bleep* and fix it you lazy moron, the posts are messing up constantly, and i cant access the forums half the time. how about you actually do something for once and fix it, and while youre there change the crappy site theme itd look better in black and purple. idiot

or

b) hey just letting you know there are some problems with the forum... outline problems... also i was thinking a black and purple site theme would be good to try out if you have the time.

now obviously either way the forum problems will be fixed because it affects all members and SR actually does a good job of looking out for forum members and his forum in general, but which of those instances is going to persuade him into considering a new site theme?

now i realise that in the big wide world people arent necessarily going to be nice in their criticism, im not that naieve, but that doesnt make it a good thing, because as we've seen over the last couple of days, the fact that it happens so frequently out there makes people like you think its the best way to get things done

Kazoobie64 · Sep 30, 2008 4:08 AM

What's that? I can't hear anything you're saying, your misogyny's too loud.

Atresac wrote:

Ahhhhh I've gotten it before. Two years ago I made this really terrible webcomic on drunkduck for a week or so. Pleanty of people actually liked it and I got some heavy-duty views, but then I realized how much it sucked and was like "aaaaahhhhhh delete this stuff".
Now it exists only in my pictures folder, never to see the light of day again.

Why do you do this to me? Now I won't be able to sleep at night, trying to figure out if it was a comic I came across before.

Speaking of drunkduck have you ever heard of Powerup Comics before? I read the first few strips and it enticed anger in me at first, but then I realized it was fake and I found it truly funny somehow. Webcomic psychology is strange.

Fletch_Talon · Sep 30, 2008 11:31 AM

question to everyone besides kazoobie (who cant hear me because apparently i hate women... talk about selective hearing)

are all 22 yr old american women this immature or just the ones from miami? i figured it was just a stereotype, but well... *looks up*

oh and the best argument for my side of this debate just came to me, it was the golden rule in my primary school and im pretty sure it came from the bible or something, its a rule that we could all do well to follow

"do un to others as others do un to you" (im not sure if i spelt "un" right, or if it was even a word, but thats how i remember it)

ill leave you to figure it out, thats assuming you drop your shroud of ignorance to actually listen despite how desperately you want everyone to have to put up with the same *bleep* criticism you have

A Guy · Sep 30, 2008 11:46 AM

"Un" and "To" are together.

Kazoobie64 · Sep 30, 2008 2:52 PM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

ill leave you to figure it out, thats assuming you drop your shroud of ignorance to actually listen despite how desperately you want everyone to have to put up with the same *bleep* criticism you have

My friend, the reason why I'm ignoring you is because you won't swallow your pride for one second and recognize the bullcrap that is spewing from your mouth. People like you are exactly the kind of people that Solomon makes fun of, and you're misogynistic to boot; you would be a great friend of Buckley's. So with each passing sentence you're actually just proving my point and I laugh at the fact that you don't realize it.

Since I've given you a few posts to think about it, but I expected too much out of the intellectually challenged, I'll give you a hint:

that says more about your ability to comprehend rather simple sentences than anything else but heres the rundown for you

Oh of course, because everything you say makes sense and whoever doesn't understand is just dumb! Exactly the attitude of the horrid webcomic artists out there that make it on to Solomon's blog. By the way, I asked two of my friends to explain to me what your phrase even meant and they had the same trouble I had. Of course, this is all because they're just retarded and we misunderstand your superior logic! Here you go, have one of them:

[13:32] MumboDelicious: "its like trying to tell an art snob that abstract art is all crap (it is by the way)" what does this even mean?
[13:32] KawaiiOtacon: Huh?
[13:33] KawaiiOtacon: that example sucks because it's so generic
[13:33] MumboDelicious: that's what I was thinking, but I have no idea how it even relates to the topic because it contradicts what he's arguing about
[13:33] KawaiiOtacon: not all art snobs love abstract art anyway
[13:33] MumboDelicious: Art snobs are into the renaissance, man. Everyone should draw things exactly as they are!
[13:34] KawaiiOtacon: yeah I thought the stereotype was that most art snobs are into perfection, which abstract art certainly isn't? ...Ohhhhh now I see the contradiction with this phrase, LOL.
[13:35] KawaiiOtacon: also, what? I re-read his post and what kind of idiot stresses the fact that you're a girl when talking about what advice to take?
[13:36] MumboDelicious: Tim Buckley, Brian Wilson, Michael Terraciano, Brew, Steve Napierski... Hey we got the whole line-up here!
[13:36] KawaiiOtacon: LMAO, seriously, that was no different than if you were a homosexual man and he had just said "I'm not taking that advice from a gay guy who is offended by the term 'butt buddy'"
[13:37] KawaiiOtacon: note that I used "gay guy" and not "homosexual" because he didn't call you the more respective "woman" term. GIRL hurr hurr.
[13:37] MumboDelicious: Heh, butt buddy. I also like how he doesn't read between the lines in other topics and just makes an assumption that I'm offended by the term and goes with it. I R SMURT
[13:37] KawaiiOtacon: No it has nothing to do with the fact that it's a lame, outdated term used by virgins trying to be cool! THE WORD IS DEGRADING TO WOMEN RARGH.

Anyway guys, a simple tip that I try to give people in terms of taking critique: Don't be a Snapesnogger. Unfortunately, the incident at conceptart.org was deleted (probably to hide her shame) so I can't show you an example; but basically what happened is: Snapesnogger posts a picture on conceptart expecting praise, what she gets is simple critique, and she goes nutso, defending herself and signaling the waaaaaaaa'mbulance. This of course causes everyone to disrespect her and they start throwing harsher words at her to get it through her head, because apparently sometimes nice critique doesn't even work. In the end, she learned absolutely nothing. She says she's accepting of critique now, but her Deviantart replies still say otherwise. It doesn't matter if you're the best artist in the world, nobody is going to respect you in the professional art world if you have that attitude.

Kamineko · Sep 30, 2008 7:52 PM

Kazoobie64 wrote:

What's that? I can't hear anything you're saying, your misogyny's too loud.
Atresac wrote:
Ahhhhh I've gotten it before. Two years ago I made this really terrible webcomic on drunkduck for a week or so. Pleanty of people actually liked it and I got some heavy-duty views, but then I realized how much it sucked and was like "aaaaahhhhhh delete this stuff".
Now it exists only in my pictures folder, never to see the light of day again.
Why do you do this to me? Now I won't be able to sleep at night, trying to figure out if it was a comic I came across before.
Speaking of drunkduck have you ever heard of Powerup Comics before? I read the first few strips and it enticed anger in me at first, but then I realized it was fake and I found it truly funny somehow. Webcomic psychology is strange.

It was called Insanity Supreme, if that rings any bells.

Anyway, yeah Powerup is great. I'm actually a member of the forums that came up with it (the dinosaur comics forums, DC is freaking awesome).

Fletch_Talon · Oct 01, 2008 2:42 AM

Kazoobie64 wrote:

My friend, the reason why I'm ignoring you is because you won't swallow your pride for one second and recognize the bullcrap that is spewing from your mouth. People like you are exactly the kind of people that Solomon makes fun of, and you're misogynistic to boot; you would be a great friend of Buckley's. So with each passing sentence you're actually just proving my point and I laugh at the fact that you don't realize it.

what can i say, your ignorance is a shining beacon in a sea of more ignorance

oh, i know what i can say! so apparently im mysoginistic, how about you cut the fancy wording and just say you think im sexist (assuming the forum doesnt censor the word)

now, im not going to ask how exactly youve come to the conclusion that i hate or in any way dislike women, because the answer i get would likely make sense to you and you alone, instead lets analyse the words "man up"

correct me if im wrong, but they would imply someone (the person the words are directed towards) needs to act more like a man. so according to you, because i dont think people need insult to accompany their criticism, im not enough of a man. therefore, all men most accept being insulted, its what men do, if you dont like being insulted youre less of a man, that seems to be what youre saying... is it? cuz, that would come across as pretty sexist in my opinion.

Since I've given you a few posts to think about it, but I expected too much out of the intellectually challenged, I'll give you a hint:

youve given nothing but the following point (albeit drawn out and repeated again and again)

"youre going to get insulted in the real world therefore its alright to insult people"

[13:32] MumboDelicious: "its like trying to tell an art snob that abstract art is all crap (it is by the way)" what does this even mean?
[13:32] KawaiiOtacon: Huh?
[13:33] KawaiiOtacon: that example sucks because it's so generic
[13:33] MumboDelicious: that's what I was thinking, but I have no idea how it even relates to the topic because it contradicts what he's arguing about
[13:33] KawaiiOtacon: not all art snobs love abstract art anyway
[13:33] MumboDelicious: Art snobs are into the renaissance, man. Everyone should draw things exactly as they are!
[13:34] KawaiiOtacon: yeah I thought the stereotype was that most art snobs are into perfection, which abstract art certainly isn't? ...Ohhhhh now I see the contradiction with this phrase, LOL.

fine, ill be more specific (as opposed to generic) next time a modern art snob then, though i should specify art snobs (as i view them) are not obsessed with perfection they are the people who stand and stare at artwork which look like a childs finger painting and try to figure out what it means, obviously we have different stereotypes regarding art snobs

not that it much matters anyway, the primary point being that i was trying to argue with someone who can't accept they could be wrong

and before you say im the same, ive alread stated what it will take to convince me to reconsider my views, but you were probably too busy ignoring me

[13:35] KawaiiOtacon: also, what? I re-read his post and what kind of idiot stresses the fact that you're a girl when talking about what advice to take?
[13:36] MumboDelicious: Tim Buckley, Brian Wilson, Michael Terraciano, Brew, Steve Napierski... Hey we got the whole line-up here!
[13:36] KawaiiOtacon: LMAO, seriously, that was no different than if you were a homosexual man and he had just said "I'm not taking that advice from a gay guy who is offended by the term 'butt buddy'"
[13:37] KawaiiOtacon: note that I used "gay guy" and not "homosexual" because he didn't call you the more respective "woman" term. GIRL hurr hurr.

wow, both you and your friend have a lot in common, youre both immature and you both have the innate ability to overlook what may have provoked a statement. my comment about your gender had nothing to do with the main argument, it had everything to do with your "man up" comment as mentioned above, im sure its great to live in a world where its only sexist if its against your gender but we live in the real world

but once again i guess it is my fault, the funbags comment was as immature as the man up comment was, i have the nasty habit of lowering myself to the level of those im arguing with, ill try to not let it happen again

[13:37] MumboDelicious: Heh, butt buddy. I also like how he doesn't read between the lines in other topics and just makes an assumption that I'm offended by the term and goes with it. I R SMURT
[13:37] KawaiiOtacon: No it has nothing to do with the fact that it's a lame, outdated term used by virgins trying to be cool! THE WORD IS DEGRADING TO WOMEN RARGH.

i love the contradiction here by your friend, we're not offended by it/its degrading to women

so why dont you like it? should i have said "mildly irritated" instead of offended? if so im sorry i got it wrong, the fact is the way you were reacting made it seem as if you genuinely hated the word, people usually hate words because they offend them, especially when they consider the word to be degrading

Anyway guys, a simple tip that I try to give people in terms of taking critique: Don't be a Snapesnogger. Unfortunately, the incident at conceptart.org was deleted (probably to hide her shame) so I can't show you an example; but basically what happened is: Snapesnogger posts a picture on conceptart expecting praise, what she gets is simple critique, and she goes nutso, defending herself and signaling the waaaaaaaa'mbulance. This of course causes everyone to disrespect her and they start throwing harsher words at her to get it through her head, because apparently sometimes nice critique doesn't even work. In the end, she learned absolutely nothing. She says she's accepting of critique now, but her Deviantart replies still say otherwise. It doesn't matter if you're the best artist in the world, nobody is going to respect you in the professional art world if you have that attitude.

thats a good story, but i cant help but notice you say it started off with simple critique, not personal insult + critique

now snapesnogger (i just realised what the name means *shudder*) is a good example of how not to be, i agree that people need to accept criticism, i never stated otherwise

i even think its appropriate that people insulted her when she didnt get the praise she was after and chucked a tantrum because of it, those insults arent going to help her improve however, but if you respond to peoples critique with disrespect theyve earned every right to respond in kind

what i dont agree with however is people criticising with insults, without provocation, even if the person ignores your criticism or politely states that theyre happy with what theyre doing, you havnt got the right to then mouth of at them and everything they do, not everyone aspires to be the best of the best, and even if they think theyre the best of the best, as long as theyre not blatantly stating that every chance they get, fine, whatever, theyre wrong, but theyre keeping it to themselves

if, on the other hand, someone responds to well spoken, polite (or at least not impolite) criticism with a tantrum or by telling them to F off, then by all means, open the gates let the flaming flood in

as i said earlier, treat others as you want to be treated (thanks a guy for the unto thing too) and to add a bit more to that, treat others as they treat you, because life is too short to be nice to *bleep*s (unless you work in customer service then you dont have much choice)

#1 Sep 29, 2008 6:02 AM

Discussion on webcomics/art, and the critique or bashing of them.

#2 Sep 29, 2008 1:32 PM

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