What if Cynder didn't exist?

Aura24 · Aug 04, 2008 4:00 AM

Everyone. Back to topic. I won't say it again. This isn't a debate.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 04, 2008 4:11 AM

A Guy wrote:

WRONG.
Calling someone's joke tasteless is an opinion. It shows that the person in question did not like the joke.
However, I do not agree with Ignitus#1Fan that it was a bad joke (it was taking a snipe at fanfic styles that I don't like), however, he is not on a high horse just because he doesn't like a certain joke and calls it "tasteless." At least where I live, if a joke is called "tasteless", it means that the person who is calling it tasteless does not like the joke-it does not mean that "Oh, god, your joke sucks, and you do too, I'm so much better than you."

WRONG

ok not really, cuz your giving your interpretation of it, i took it in a different way, i have to say i would have been more inclined to take it as a statement of singular opinion rather than universal truth if he had said why he was so offended

the problem with language is its open for interpretation, tasteless to you is an indication of opinion, tasteless to me carries the belief that a "tasteless" comment should never have been said because its universally offensive, for example, joking about someone dying a couple of days after theyre dead.

heck for all i know, tasteless to someone might mean they licked the screen and the joke had no flavour

Aura24 · Aug 04, 2008 4:23 AM

Fletch_Talon and A Guy, please stop this. This is not the thread to agrue, do it elsewhere.

Gwenio · Aug 04, 2008 4:47 AM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

A Guy wrote:
WRONG.
Calling someone's joke tasteless is an opinion. It shows that the person in question did not like the joke.
However, I do not agree with Ignitus#1Fan that it was a bad joke (it was taking a snipe at fanfic styles that I don't like), however, he is not on a high horse just because he doesn't like a certain joke and calls it "tasteless." At least where I live, if a joke is called "tasteless", it means that the person who is calling it tasteless does not like the joke-it does not mean that "Oh, god, your joke sucks, and you do too, I'm so much better than you."
WRONG
ok not really, cuz your giving your interpretation of it, i took it in a different way, i have to say i would have been more inclined to take it as a statement of singular opinion rather than universal truth if he had said why he was so offended
the problem with language is its open for interpretation, tasteless to you is an indication of opinion, tasteless to me carries the belief that a "tasteless" comment should never have been said because its universally offensive, for example, joking about someone dying a couple of days after theyre dead.
heck for all i know, tasteless to someone might mean they licked the screen and the joke had no flavour

And I would say, based on about a year of being on the Sierra Forum with him, that if he had meant it to mean you are a bad person he would have stated how the statement shows that you are one.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 04, 2008 5:04 AM

Gwenio wrote:

And I would say, based on about a year of being on the Sierra Forum with him, that if he had meant it to mean you are a bad person he would have stated how the statement shows that you are one.

fair enough, im sure if i knew him at all then i would have understood that, but since i didnt i just interpreted the statement based on prior experiences with other people

it seems theres been misunderstandings and over-sensetivity on both sides i spose

and aura24, if youre wondering why we're ignoring your orders to cease and desist, its partially because youre not a mod and partially (in my case at least) because i can see that for the moment, the debating is beginning to subside

also debate was inevitable in a thread which theorises about the removal of an extremely popular character

spyromaster330 · Aug 04, 2008 5:17 AM

If cynder didnt exist, i wouldnt care. I dont like her that much. Shes ok but i just dont understand why she has so many fans. To be honest, im actually hoping she dies in DOTD because im sick of Cynder.

Aura24 · Aug 04, 2008 5:32 AM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

and aura24, if youre wondering why we're ignoring your orders to cease and desist, its partially because youre not a mod and partially (in my case at least) because i can see that for the moment, the debating is beginning to subside
also debate was inevitable in a thread which theorises about the removal of an extremely popular character

Well, the debate was getting out of hand. I'm relieved that it finally stopped.

DarkMaster · Aug 04, 2008 5:34 AM

then i would probably be dead...........

TheManiacOnWheels · Aug 04, 2008 7:58 AM

O_o Dang, ya beat me to mentioning the fantard thing this time wink .

Ignitus's #1fan wrote:

No offense, but regardless of the fact that was a joke, it was very, VERY tasteless. Homosexuality*, pedophilia, AND incest, all in one post. Cool, dude!
On a side note, I do agree that Ignitus is Spyro's dragon father, whether it be biological or adopted. *ahem* then again anyone who knows me at all already knows that .
Now, on topic: If Cynder didn't exist, neither would any of her fantards who like to bash all the other characters and regard her as perfection >.>.
* = Note that I don't have anything against gay people. At all. I just despise it when people throw it upon characters that are clearly not gay.
Fletch_Talon wrote:
if cynder didnt exist, / or X fanfiction writers would probably have spyro hooking up with ignitus
and he'd probably still end up being his father

Neotyguy40 · Aug 04, 2008 8:14 AM

Let's look at a more technical view.

If Cynder never existed, that means that her egg never existed, and Gual needed to keep 1 egg alive to free the dark master.

Since Gaul was so keen on getting a dragon egg with dark powers, he would have taken an egg that was almost like Cynder's egg.

Gaul MUST have named Cynder, (otherwise Cynder wouldn't have a name), so he would still have named her Cynder.

Basically, nothing will have changed. Cynder may look different and have a different personality, but people would still be SpyroXCynder crazed and stuff.

But here is something... What if the egg that Gaul took instead of Cynder's egg was a BOY...

Gaul wouldn't have named him Cynder (that is a girls name), so he may have named him Ash, since they both mean the same thing. So Ash would become this buff and powerful dragon, who would fight Spyro. Now for all we know, Spyro may die against Ash since Ash wouldn't use the same speed and agility as Cynder.

But to continue the story, let's say Spyro won...

So when Ash runs away, Spyro might not have chased him, since most people know that Spyro only chased Cynder because he liked him.

So that means that Spyro won't have noticed the attack on the temple like he did before, so they might have lost that fight.

Now if you can tell what is going to happen next, let's just say that we have NO idea what would happen, since it is a 50/50 chance that Ash/Cynder would be a boy or girl.

Basically, Cynder MUST have existed, otherwise NO eggs would have hatched, and everything in the story would fall apart.

So to all you people who HATE Cynder, just remember she is just as important as Spyro or Ignitus.

ratchet · Aug 04, 2008 10:21 AM

If Cynder didn't exist, then more than half of the TLOS Fanbase wouldn't exist.

In another Scenario, if TLOS's Story was crap, 97% of the TLOS fanbase wouldn't exist.

Neotyguy: I think we mean that theres a different villian in ANB but anyway....

since most people know that Spyro only chased Cynder because he liked him

Cynder's a Guy now!? Wow!
I'm sure that Spyro would have chased the boy dragon as well.

A Guy · Aug 04, 2008 12:13 PM

Aura24 wrote:

Well, the debate was getting out of hand. I'm relieved that it finally stopped.

OH N03Z!!!!!!!!!!!111111111 TH3R3'S A D3B4T3!!!!!!!!!!111111111111oneoneone!!!! WHY C4N'T W3 A11 JUST G3T 4L0NG!!!!!!!!11111111!!!!!!!!!1SHIFTONEONEONEONEONEELEVENONEONE

Debates happen. Not everyone will agree. If people disagree, they're not just going to hold hands.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 04, 2008 12:16 PM

A Guy wrote:

Aura24 wrote:
Well, the debate was getting out of hand. I'm relieved that it finally stopped.
OH N03Z!!!!!!!!!!!111111111 TH3R3'S A D3B4T3!!!!!!!!!!111111111111oneoneone!!!! WHY C4N'T W3 A11 JUST G3T 4L0NG!!!!!!!!11111111!!!!!!!!!1SHIFTONEONEONEONEONEELEVENONEONE
Debates happen. Not everyone will agree. If people disagree, they're not just going to hold hands.

true, people do over-react, but i think aura's point was that it was also off topic debate, my use of the term "high horse" and ignitus's dislike of my sense of humour really dont relate to the topic

but ive never supported the idea of using pms to debate, and i think its silly to move to another thread, i think its best to just let it sort itself out

raven · Aug 04, 2008 1:27 PM

Aura24 wrote:

If Cynder didn't exist in the Spyro series, then Ember would've been the only female dragon in the series. Also, Cynder's the only dragoness who's appeared more than once in the series, and is probably the only one who everyone likes and adores for her relationship with Spyro. Plus, she is a playable in DotD, and if she didn't exist, then Spyro would be alone in the game like before.

Cynder is in the 'The Legend of Spyro' trilogy, which, as far as I know, is a completely different, separate series to the one that Ember is in (A Hero's Tail etc). Then there would be no female dragons in The Legend of Spyro universe, which sounds kinda sad. And maybe then we would doing the Dawn of the Dragon co-op with Sparx (hey, he's gotta do something useful) or Hunter instead of Cynder.

Kazoobie64 · Aug 04, 2008 2:03 PM

Neotyguy40 wrote:

But here is something... What if the egg that Gaul took instead of Cynder's egg was a BOY...
Gaul wouldn't have named him Cynder (that is a girls name), so he may have named him Ash, since they both mean the same thing. So Ash would become this buff and powerful dragon, who would fight Spyro. Now for all we know, Spyro may die against Ash since Ash wouldn't use the same speed and agility as Cynder.
But to continue the story, let's say Spyro won...
So when Ash runs away, Spyro might not have chased him, since most people know that Spyro only chased Cynder because he liked him.

Actually, that sounds pretty awesome. Though I don't know why you're insisting that Spyro wouldn't chase after him. Maybe they're really good friends, or it's his brother, or maybe Spyro could be... You know... But I doubt that. I actually thought Cynder was Spyro's sister for a long time, but Krome insists that their poor writing make it so she's not, so I guess I have to take their word for it. Although, you've now convinced me that had Cynder been a boy, I probably would have liked the relationship better; though the downside would have been a million unnecessary slash fics. sad

In any case, all of the stuff that happens in the plot because of Cynder aren't really all that necessary; they only exist to use the character itself. If Cynder wouldn't have existed, then the writers would have obviously found out another way to carry on the plot.

Ignitus's #1fan · Aug 04, 2008 10:15 PM

Alright, I'm going to have to settle things with Fletch_Talon. Sorry, but I simply can't just ignore it.

I'm a fanfic writer, yes, but thus far, I have not written anything that even vaguely portrays any kind of romance - so thank you for insulting me again by implying that I may be a writer of atrocities. If you don't believe me, here's my dA page, where I have mostly Ignitus fanfics and a few others Spyro fanfics:
http://ignitus1992.deviantart.com/

Mostly father-son -ish fics about Ignitus and Spyro, as you can see.

I was not personally insulting you when I stated what I stated. As a matter of fact, read it again and realize that I only said I didn't like your joke. I wasn't implying you were a bad person, at all. I merely was stating I didn't like your joke and didn't think it was approrpiate. If I wanted to insult you, I would have done it directly, as Gwenio stated. You were the one who blew it out of proportion. And as far as the joke went, I asked a few other people who are not on this forum what they think, just so I know if I'm overreacting or not - they didn't like your joke either. I suppose it may be a matter of what kind of jokes we find acceptable. However, I think it may have helped if you had specified the fact that you yourself were not comfortable with what you suggested. You didn't, so I flipped because I hated the joke. Had you elaborated more on how you feel on the issue, maybe this argument wouldn't be occuring. I didn't insult you, so I hardly understand why you snapped back like you did and had to bring up the issue that I've "defended Ignitus before".

Defending a fictional character means being a fantard? Wow, that's some logic ya got there. I realize that he isn't real. But that doesn't mean I can't be attached to him. I can't help but be. But you're probably one of the "Real rEaL ReAl!1!1" people who think it's absurd and insane to care about a fictional character. It's not like he's taken over my life. Yes, I'm very fond of him, yes, I do talk about him a lot, yes yes yes - but none of this means I'm a fantard. I can't help but love him to this extent when he's the exact kind of father I always wished I had, and I see a lot of myself in LoS Spyro, so that just makes me that much more attached. I know it's probably pathetic to look to a fictional character like this, I know that, but I don't care. I'm the kid whose birthday wish every year was to have a better dad, and yet I stopped believing in wishes coming true at age 7 - I'm the embodiment of pathetic. At least I have actual reasons for loving this character and defending him. What does the random Cynder fantard have? They can't come up with anything beyond "lulz shez hawt". If they had actual reasons, I wouldn't mind how much they loved Cynder to bits. However, even if they did have real reasons, that doesn't give them the right to go around yapping about how perfect Cynder is yet bash other characters for no good reason. You don't see me bashing any characters, do you? If a topic about a character comes up and I happen to not like the character for whatever reason(Flame, Mole-Yair, and Ember come to mind), I state how I feel and I point out whatever flaws I think the character has. I don't bash.
There is nothing wrong with defending a fictional character and actually being this devoted. At least I don't think there's anything wrong with it. So again, I'm going to have to say, I'm not a fantard.
And when I say Cynder fantards, I don't mean all Cynder fans. People don't seem to get that. What I mean by Cynder fantards is the Cynder fans who bash all the other characters but believe Cynder to be utter perfection. As far as your accusation of my being an Ignitus fantard goes, how can I not fight against that? You want me to just swallow the insult when I know it's not true? It means I'm superior?
And mind you, I don't have a superiority complex. I hate arrogant, pompous people. Ask anyone who knows me. I don't think highly of myself. And of course, it is hard to think highly of oneself when one has been criticised all one's life for no apparent reason other than for existing. You might say I have a very low self esteem. I was in no way trying to be superior what I said what I said, and you want to know someting more? If you had said the same thing about any father-son pair, I would've had the same reaction. It isn't just because Ignitus is my favorite character as you have accused. I can't seem to like father-son incest in general, and considering what you do know about me, you can guess that that(father-son incest) is what appauls me more than anything. So if it had been some other father-son pair, it wouldn't have been any different. The fact that Ignitus was involved didn't change much.

And also - maybe Cynder has a fair amount of abuse as well, but it is nonexistent when compared to how much she is loved to bits. Also, you only see this forum. I'm on Sierra and dA as well - there are people who criticise him unfairly, and many misjudge him. So I stand by what I said - he's the most abused new series character, and even if not, he's still one of the most abused. The vast majority of people simply seem indifferent to him altogether, pretend that he doesn't exist. Why people think he has lots of fans, I've no clue, because I don't see so many, especially if I compare his fanbase to Cynder's.

I have no idea if I addressed everything you said to me, and frankly, I'm not sure I care. There has been a massive amount of miscommunication here, and frankly I'm just sick of this fandom. If you knew what this fandom puts me through day after day, you'd understand why I say that, and if you had known me as much as other users do, maybe this argument wouldn't be occuring. I don't have the patience or the willpower to type anything more in response to you. If you have anything more to say, let's be nicer to each other, it's not making either of us look good. It's harder for me because I have an anger problem inherited from my father, so when it comes to things I care about, my judgement isn't always good.

To Neotyguy40: Umm, your logic is a bit flawed. Firstly, if he hadn't chased Cynder, he actually would've noticed the invasion faster, because he would've been right there. Secondly, who says he only goes after her because he "likes" her? What if, instead, it had been a friend? Wouldn't he have not wanted his friend to leave? Or what if it was Ignitus who had decided to leave? Wouldn't he have gone after him to stop him, as well? Just because he likes Cynder doesn't mean he wouldn't do something similar for someone he shares a completely different kind of relationship with. Yes, he did risk the world for her in TEN, but he did the same for Ignitus in ANB.

No one is saying she isn't important to the plot - she is. However, I'll have to say, I don't think she's as crucial to the plot as some of the other characters(Spyro, Ignitus, Chronicler, and Gaul come to mind). No one denied the fact that she has a fairly big role in the plot.

To be on topic: Gwenio got it right. If Cynder didn't exist, Gaul would've picked one of the other eggs. Things would be different, true, and we don't know how different, but the plot would likely still stand.

Stormy · Aug 04, 2008 11:44 PM

ratchet wrote:

If Cynder didn't exist, then more than half of the TLOS Fanbase wouldn't exist.

[sub]This is true.

I was just looking at this thread, and I saw many comments from people who admitted they only finished playing the game for Cynder, which in my opinion is ridiculous. =P[/sub]

Ignitus's #1Fan wrote:

Secondly, who says he only goes after her because he "likes" her? What if, instead, it had been a friend? Wouldn't he have not wanted his friend to leave? Or what if it was Ignitus who had decided to leave? Wouldn't he have gone after him to stop him, as well? Just because he likes Cynder doesn't mean he wouldn't do something similar for someone he shares a completely different kind of relationship with. Yes, he did risk the world for her in TEN, but he did the same for Ignitus in ANB.

[sub]Exactly what I was thinking. To be honest, I'm getting a bit sick of some SpyroxCynder supporters insisting that Spyro must "like" Cynder because he went to go save her. What, you wouldn't save your sister or your friend?[/sub]

TheManiacOnWheels · Aug 05, 2008 12:29 AM

Yeah. He'd save anyone he cares about. As has previously been pointed out, he risked the world for both Ignitus AND Cynder. They're both important to him, of course he doesn't want them to get hurt.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 05, 2008 1:19 AM

Ignitus's #1fan wrote:

Alright, I'm going to have to settle things with Fletch_Talon. Sorry, but I simply can't just ignore it.
I'm a fanfic writer, yes, but thus far, I have not written anything that even vaguely portrays any kind of romance - so thank you for insulting me again by implying that I may be a writer of atrocities.

Fun Fact: many jokes are based on stereotypes
eg. New Zealanders engage in sexual intercourse with sheep
therefore: spyro must be from new zealand, cuz he loves ramming sheep

not exactly hilarious but its purpose is to explain how jokes can, and are formed around stereotypes

I merely was stating I didn't like your joke and didn't think it was approrpiate. If I wanted to insult you, I would have done it directly, as Gwenio stated. You were the one who blew it out of proportion.

as said already, i can only base my interpretation of the word "tasteless" on past experiences involving said word. past experiences have shown me that people generally use the word as a suggestion of disgust, for example if someone were to make a joke about a massive amount of deaths the day after the incident occurred.

I suppose it may be a matter of what kind of jokes we find acceptable.

definitely

However, I think it may have helped if you had specified the fact that you yourself were not comfortable with what you suggested. You didn't, so I flipped because I hated the joke. Had you elaborated more on how you feel on the issue, maybe this argument wouldn't be occuring.

thusfar, you are the only person who has told me that they did not realise i was "not comfortable" with the themes, as A Guy has said, he realised it was taking a stab at those people, not supporting them.

long story short, i felt it was fairly self explanitory, clearly not as much as i had hoped

But you're probably one of the "Real rEaL ReAl!1!1" people who think it's absurd and insane to care about a fictional character... I'm the embodiment of pathetic.

actually its perfectly normal to associate with fictional characters, hence the reason we (humans) read books, watch movies, play games and stuff. however regardless of how strongly you feel for a character, if someone takes a crack at him, its not a crack at you, or at what the character represents to you

At least I have actual reasons for loving this character and defending him. What does the random Cynder fantard have? They can't come up with anything beyond "lulz shez hawt". If they had actual reasons, I wouldn't mind how much they loved Cynder to bits.

you associate with ignitus because he represents a father figure that you wish you had
people like cynder because she represents something to them, whether its because shes a cute character, because she symbolises a love interest in a spyro game (which is a big deal for people obsessed with the idea of love)

they have their reasons, just because they arent as deep as yours or they cant explain them as well, doesnt invalidate them

Im gonna stop there, ive ignored most of the spyro character stuff because that clearly wasnt the main issue, your issue revolves around your personal life, unfortunately im one of the numerous people who believe political correctness is a ridiculous concept to protect the over-sensetive from being offended

im not going to stop telling jokes that could offend homosexuals on the off chance that theres a homosexual in the room, mostly because i personally have no grudge against homosexuality and say it because its a joke, not because i believe it, the same goes with "racist" jokes "fat person" jokes "blonde" jokes "incestual" jokes etc.

we live in a world where people are starting to realise that most of the time, a joke is meant to be funny, not offensive, youre the only person that can make something offensive, because for something to be offensive, you have to take offense (if that makes any sense, it does to me)

i dont know what has happened in your life, its impossible for me to know without asking you about it, which i wouldnt do, even if i knew you well, as i said im not going to refrain from saying something that could offend someone, just because that 1 person out of however many others has personal feelings regarding the issue

in the end, it was a misunderstanding on both parts, i think ive shown in the past that i dont hold grudges against people i disagree with, so i hope future encounters between us wont be overshadowed, ill retract my Ignitard statement (i think they still exist, but you arent necessarily one) obviously you find that a more serious insult than i consider it, i think some have a different concept of the -tard label than you do as narutard i think just refers to someone obsessed with the series, possibly excessively so.

Ignitus's #1fan · Aug 05, 2008 8:43 PM

Again, the whole fantard issue depends upon our definitions of the word. I took it as an offense because my definition of it isn't a nice one - if you want to call someone a devoted fan, say devoted fan, so that the person won't take it the wrong way. Perhaps people shouldn't be so easily offended, but perhaps people also should be careful not to offend when they're not even trying to at all wink .

As far as the incest jokes go, I still hate them with every fiber of my being, but so long as it's loud and clear that you're not supporting what you're suggesting(aka, you're just as disgusted but are poking fun at something else completely), I don't care. Like I said, when it comes to things I care about(like father-son bonds in general), I rather lose it, so I simply couldn't take your joke well - it just wasn't really that clear to me what you were going for. But let's get over that now tongue .

In any case, I'm glad this issue has been resolved. I bear no ill will against you, and I will try to get along with you on other topics smile . Shake hands on it?

Oh, and one last thing - may the ancestors look after you... may they look after us all.

...what?! I had to say it xp!

TheManiacOnWheels · Aug 06, 2008 1:29 AM

HA! big_smile .

Fletch_Talon · Aug 06, 2008 9:41 AM

Ignitus's #1fan wrote:

In any case, I'm glad this issue has been resolved. I bear no ill will against you, and I will try to get along with you on other topics . Shake hands on it?
*awesome secret handshake thats so secret you cant remember how its done*

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