what will happen to spyro ater dawn of the dragon ?

Stormy · Dec 18, 2008 3:12 AM

I did read your whole post, and it sounded like you were talking about Ratchet, Kazoobie, and me.... Whatever.

And like I said, I'm not sick of you arguing in favor of TLoS. By all means, continue. What I'm sick of is the assumptions that seemed to be directed at the people you were arguing with.

Kazoobie64 · Dec 18, 2008 3:44 AM

Yeah, honestly I'm pretty sure he was at least talking about me since he's said that "well you'll always dislike it as it's in your nature" line directly to me several times. Aren't you, ratchet and I the most active debaters in favor of Insomniac's approach anyway? I've never even seen anyone else act the way he's saying; who else could he be talking about?

Red, just a little extra advice:

XRedDragonX wrote:

Saying that Insomniac dropped the series just because they were bored with it was pretty much the exact same thing that I said Ratchet. The series had nothing going for it in their mind..and they CHANGED their strategy by moving on to a shooting style game to keep up with the market. Spyro had nothing going for them in their minds...so you pretty much just proved my point by saying that...all you did was repeat it what a said in a more detailed manner..nice try though.

You're actually going around in circles with what you're stating. You're saying Insomniac "changed" their direction because of unfavorable market, which is what ratchet was telling you wasn't true. They changed simply because they weren't interested and wanted to move on to a shooter/platformer project. It had absolutely nothing to do with Spyro declining as a game nor with the market.

RedDragonX · Dec 18, 2008 4:30 AM

Stormy wrote:

I did read your whole post, and it sounded like you were talking about Ratchet, Kazoobie, and me.... Whatever.
And like I said, I'm not sick of you arguing in favor of TLoS. By all means, continue. What I'm sick of is the assumptions that seemed to be directed at the people you were arguing with.

Well I'm sorry that it came out that way but I wasn't trying to direct that at you guys in general so I do give you my appoligies for that one. I do enjoy debating with you guys about this subject..so don't get me wrong I'm not trying in any way to make you guys too angry over the subject.

And as for the concept of the the market not being the reason why Insomniac kept interest in the series...I am merely respectfully disagreeing. The market will always have a play in where developers want to go with a series...after all they do want to make more money..and the money wasn't going to be in continuing with Spyro in general...that's just what I see when I look at the facts...and nobody is going to really know for certain.

When it comes down to it I'm pretty sure that you did state before that it is a consumer business...and Insomniac changed their approach so that they could produce something that more consumers were interested in as a whole...that and to branch away and create something different then Spyro. So in any way you go with it the market will always be involved the the decisions made in producing games or in going in a different direction.

ratchet · Dec 18, 2008 8:00 AM

Saying that Insomniac dropped the series just because they were bored with it was pretty much the exact same thing that I said Ratchet. The series had nothing going for it in their mind..and they CHANGED their strategy by moving on to a shooting style game to keep up with the market. Spyro had nothing going for them in their minds...so you pretty much just proved my point by saying that...all you did was repeat it what a said in a more detailed manner..nice try though.

Ah, no! I said they werent INTERESTED with Spyro, I Didn't say that the Market was bad for platformers. Just that they wanted to do something else because they got bored not to "keep up with the market". Heck , The Original Series sold as Well As Ratchet and Clank!

Kazoobie64 · Dec 18, 2008 3:37 PM

You're kind of ignoring the facts now, Red... Spyro was doing great in the market after YotD. There was nothing wrong with it, but Insomniac was more interested in moving on to Ratchet & Clank. It was NOT because they were like "well we think it'll do better in today's market." Spyro's success probably gave them the motivation to go on to do what they actually always wanted to do.

Imagine if you like both milk chocolate and dark chocolate but you like milk chocolate better, yet the store only sells dark chocolate. So, you buy it because you like it anyway. Then, the store starts stocking up on milk chocolate and you are given the opportunity to switch to it instead. Would you continue eating dark chocolate?

RedDragonX · Dec 21, 2008 3:13 AM

Well the views might be different for some...but I'm sorry to say that that developers having INTEREST in anything always involves a market move...they are very related...and I just don't see anyone making a move like that without more reason being behind it. Needless to say either way they lost interest in continuing to produce the series...and sold it off to lesser companies..who in turn caused it to sink even lower.

I don't ignore the facts..I just interpret them the way that I always have...and that was that once they developed YotD they decided that it was time for a change...wether or not it was simply for personal reasons in wanting to move to something else...or because they felt that changing styles to attempt something that could make more impact in the market as a whole.

I'm sorry if I don't see it the way you do...but my whole life I have managed to learn that just about nobody will make a decision with their being a large reason behind it...not in today's world.

ratchet · Dec 22, 2008 1:29 AM

XRedDragonX wrote:

Well the views might be different for some...but I'm sorry to say that that developers having INTEREST in anything always involves a market move...they are very related...and I just don't see anyone making a move like that without more reason being behind it. Needless to say either way they lost interest in continuing to produce the series...and sold it off to lesser companies..who in turn caused it to sink even lower.
I don't ignore the facts..I just interpret them the way that I always have...and that was that once they developed YotD they decided that it was time for a change...wether or not it was simply for personal reasons in wanting to move to something else...or because they felt that changing styles to attempt something that could make more impact in the market as a whole.
I'm sorry if I don't see it the way you do...but my whole life I have managed to learn that just about nobody will make a decision with their being a large reason behind it...not in today's world.

INTEREST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MARKET! Far out, In an interview with Insomniac games they said that they left Spyro because "He had limited capabilities, He couldn't even handle a gun", does that sound like "Oh, the game was not as good in the market as it was 2 years ago"?
Besides, games like "Jak and Daxter: The Precursor Legacy" was an example of how the platformer market was NOT crashing. That game actually probably featured MORE platforming than a Spyro game (less minigames). Not to mention 3d platformer games Lie Super mario Galaxy and Daxter for the PSP selling lie hotcakes!
THE 3D PLATFORMER MARKET IS STILL VERY MUCH ALIVE!

RedDragonX · Dec 22, 2008 2:34 AM

Well at least you are determined to make your point lol...and I'm sorry but having interest in something does tie into the market...I don't know how you can't see that lol...and again these are my views so you don't have to accept them. If the game had limited capabilities then it didn't fit the image of the game that they wished to create. Even if the market was still doing well with 3D plateformers..they felt that their was a way to be even more successful..and so their interest changed to what they desired to accomplish in the good for the company...which will always be influenced by the market...they will always be in tandem in some way or another.

Sorry but I still don't see the point...and to me the quote.."He had limted capabilities, He coldn't even handle a gun", just makes me see my point even more. The character was too limited for what they wanted to use..so they changed things so that they could accomplish more in the selling world...and omg..that's the market. It's always going to be there.

Spyro Master · Dec 24, 2008 10:00 AM

well how else is spyor gonan b successful if they dnt listen to the market and that handling a gun thing that was from insomniac explaining y they gt rid of spyro probaly y ETD had spyro in a tank to prove spyro can use weapons lol

RedDragonX · Dec 26, 2008 5:12 PM

Well that was part of the new developers attempting to stay with that kind of concept that Spyro can use weapsons to help fit into the market a little better...of course Insomniac knew that this style wouldn't really work....again this just pushed them to develop something new and let go of Spyro....the next company simply attempted to accomplish something that they knew wouldn't really work...and look what it got them.

Spyro Master · Dec 26, 2008 10:31 PM

hmm yeh various plotholes and also nt much background description

ratchet · Dec 27, 2008 12:24 AM

XRedDragonX wrote:

Well at least you are determined to make your point lol...and I'm sorry but having interest in something does tie into the market...I don't know how you can't see that lol...and again these are my views so you don't have to accept them. If the game had limited capabilities then it didn't fit the image of the game that they wished to create. Even if the market was still doing well with 3D plateformers..they felt that their was a way to be even more successful..and so their interest changed to what they desired to accomplish in the good for the company...which will always be influenced by the market...they will always be in tandem in some way or another.
Sorry but I still don't see the point...and to me the quote.."He had limted capabilities, He coldn't even handle a gun", just makes me see my point even more. The character was too limited for what they wanted to use..so they changed things so that they could accomplish more in the selling world...and omg..that's the market. It's always going to be there.

NO!For the last time, They didn't change the character to "accommidate him in the new market", they changed the chracter became they were bored, THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH HIM! They kinew that they could create better games (not necesarily for a different market) if they scrapped Spyro, it wasn't in favour of the market or anything. Gosh you're twisting things...
Are you saying that "If they made a New Spyro game which was nearly exaculy the same it wouldn't sell well" that is true, but that is not what I'm sating. I'm saying that the genre he was in (platformers) was not dying and many more could be made

Well that was part of the new developers attempting to stay with that kind of concept that Spyro can use weapsons to help fit into the market a little better...of course Insomniac knew that this style wouldn't really work....again this just pushed them to develop something new and let go of Spyro....the next company simply attempted to accomplish something that they knew wouldn't really work...and look what it got them.

Wrong! The DEvelopers put him in a tank and all that crap because they were running out of ideas for what Spyro could do himself. There were also minigames in previous Spyro games which required this sort of stuff (Example the tank blast minigame in Haunted Tomb in Spyro 3). And no, they didn't put that in becaquse "of the change of the market" either, IIt was because Spyro games were the games which had every Genre of gaming in it as minigames.

RedDragonX · Dec 27, 2008 12:58 AM

I was wondering when you would finally respond lol...anyways I'm not twisting things around in the least bit...I am just being brutally honest about what I see...and btw changing the character around because they wanted to accomidate him into the new market is exactly the reason I am trying to point out to you...they didn't know what to do with the character and they couldn't go in any direction that would fit their desires...so they sold him off so that they could persue something different....the plateforming ideal to them had changed and they wanted to follow that change so that they could produce something more fitting to their needs...so again you have just managed to say that same thing once more lol...if they had continued to make more they knew that things would not have turned out as well as before.

As for the second part that whole concept is basically how you see it and that they just put him in theses minigames and such because they were running out of ideas...and AGAIN you just prove my point even more. They ran out of ideas and faced the same problem that Insomniac had faced...they just went ahead and did it anyways...and go figure it wasn't nearly as popular as it had been before....the changing market is always a factor when you produce and sell of games...no matter what any individual thinks...that's the way it will always work in most consumer businesses.

spyros#1fan · Dec 27, 2008 1:49 AM

Well on the sierra forums it says there WILL be more spyro games carried on after DotD, just don't expect it to be called, "The legend of spyro", because that sieries is a trioligy.
My guess is the original is done, gone, but I really don't know.
In my opinion, i like the legend of spyro WAY better.
I could never get into the plot of the games. hmm

RedDragonX · Dec 27, 2008 3:33 AM

Well they said that they would like to continue with the storyline and characters that they began with in LoS...should DotD be met with decent reception...but I really don't know what they plan to do in the future. I really don't see them connecting anything with older games....and as far as I know the only thing coming up will be this movie/movies...and I bet that they will wait until after those come out to make a decision.

ratchet · Dec 27, 2008 11:50 AM

XRedDragonX wrote:

I was wondering when you would finally respond lol...anyways I'm not twisting things around in the least bit...I am just being brutally honest about what I see...and btw changing the character around because they wanted to accomidate him into the new market is exactly the reason I am trying to point out to you...they didn't know what to do with the character and they couldn't go in any direction that would fit their desires...so they sold him off so that they could persue something different....the plateforming ideal to them had changed and they wanted to follow that change so that they could produce something more fitting to their needs...so again you have just managed to say that same thing once more lol...if they had continued to make more they knew that things would not have turned out as well as before.

Yes, They changed the Games because of there own accord, Nothing to do with the market.

As for the second part that whole concept is basically how you see it and that they just put him in theses minigames and such because they were running out of ideas...and AGAIN you just prove my point even more. They ran out of ideas and faced the same problem that Insomniac had faced...they just went ahead and did it anyways...and go figure it wasn't nearly as popular as it had been before

Didn't you notice the game reviews of ETD. Again, ETDs significantly lower sales compared to previous Spyro games were due to the game sucking, not the market change. Don't you think that if a game sucked it will get lower sales?

....the changing market is always a factor when you produce and sell of games...no matter what any individual thinks...that's the way it will always work in most consumer businesses.

But it is not what Insomniac were thinking. They created Ratchet and Clank to use a character with more features, so they could do alot more with it, have more fun. You can already see that Insomniac were the "Do anything" masters when it comes to Spyro 3. They wanted to do even more than the everything that was in Spyro 3, and that's why they created Ratchet and Clank, it was not to do with the changing market.
Not to mention the facts that Ratchet and clank sold 2 and a half million copies each while the spyro series sole 3-4 million each. AND also the fact that Spyro 3 sold more than Spyro 2. Evidence the market was not changing.

I've also already given you games very similar to spyro released in the years to come that have sold many copies such as Super Mario Sunshine and Jak And Daxter.
I've given you more than enough evidence why Insomniac Simply changed because they were bored, and if you can't see it by now, I can't help you.

Sources:
http://www.vgchartz.com/games/index.php … order=Hits

RedDragonX · Dec 27, 2008 9:48 PM

Well dude in my mind I just see the exact opposite..and I wonder why you can't see that lol...but it's just a difference in opinion and it has been interesting talking about it...but I don't see any kind of developer changing something simply because they were bored...to me it always involves the market in some way or another...I guess because I have dealt with more consumers and different kinds of markets...I know how most big wigs think...and their mind is in the sales at just about all times. Then again I don't work in a video game market.

Either way it could be for any of the above reasons we all mentioned...and regardless or not of how we both view it...we will never really know for sure.

Insomiac only created three Spyro games...and after the third game was released..they realized their limitations with the character and just how much they could do with him...so they switched over to Ratchet and Clank...for which they have released Six titles as opposed to Spyro's three...so they have made much more fortune with the change from Spyro to R+C...so the sales in general favor the new change.

Again I'm not sure about the exact sales for the Spyro games...but to me market will always influence a developer even if they don't show it. They are always in it for the profit as well as the pleasure.

Spyro Master · Dec 28, 2008 12:04 PM

so they av to sort of balance the pleasure and the profits while been influenced by the market while making the game this all sounds confusing to me lol

ratchet · Dec 29, 2008 2:53 AM

I've given you more than enough evidence that Insomniac's change had nothing to do with the market, it was due to Spyro's limitations, they didn't think they could develop him anymore so they moved on, THAT'S IT. Many gaming companies move on for more reasons than market, yes some do move just because of market, but it was not the case with Insomniac Games.

Insomiac only created three Spyro games...and after the third game was released..they realized their limitations with the character and just how much they could do with him...so they switched over to Ratchet and Clank...for which they have released Six titles as opposed to Spyro's three...so they have made much more fortune with the change from Spyro to R+C...so the sales in general favor the new change.

Reguardless, That doesn't prove anything. It's obvious Insomniac Can Continue creating Ratchet and Clank games because he has more capabilities thanm Spyro, the reason they left Spyro in the first place. And I've already stated how good the sales were for Spyro, and actually increased between 200, 000 dollars between Spyro 2 And Spyro 3, so Money was defiently not the reason they left Spyro.

RedDragonX · Dec 29, 2008 5:25 AM

You're not proving your point at all with what you are saying. You are actually proving mine more every time you go into limitations about Spyro. Trust me when I say that Market is ALWAYS involved. Developers nor any other consumer based business will just drop a product just like that because it simply does not work. They move on and chnage because they need to keep adapting to the world around them.

True it is that Spyro could have made money had they continued...but Insomniac realized their limitations with it...and when they realized those limitations they knew it was time to move on to something else....because their was NOTHING Left for them in the market while producing those games. Spyro had it's run and they felt they could go no further while continuing to build upon the strong foundation they had already created.

Perhaps to them it was better to leave it as it was then rather continue onwards with a character that they could no longer build upon. Saying THAT's THAT is not the way it works in any business. Their is motive for everything...and their is supply and demand...and they shifted their focus so that they could build upon something with more consumer demand...and it has done nothing but help them with the R+C series.

ratchet · Dec 29, 2008 11:05 AM

Whatever, Lets just get out of the subject, Because you in no way convincing me, and I'm not convincing you.
I'm not saying that spyro needed extra limitations so that he could move into another genre, i was saying that spyro didn't have that many limitations in general. Insomniac liked having games with EVERY GENRE, and we know they liked shooters (they started with diruptor now they have resistance 2) and that's why they made ratchet and clank. Actually, After Spyro, Insomniac wrre going to create a dark shoter gamre, but changed their mind because they liked what they did with spyro, and add a colourful platforming atmosphere to it. It was also obvious that Insomniac were throwing everything at YOTD, it was obviously saying "this is the best we can do with Spyro". I don't see any evidence of market change, i don't think Insomniac saw any between 2000-2001. They were good friends with Naughty dog and knew they were going into jak and daxter. And Seeing how Ratchet and Clank itself Is pretty much just like Spyro with Hands, I don't see how you can say they added hands for the market.

Spyro Master · Dec 29, 2008 4:18 PM

erm ok bt shall we get bak onto the topic? i think that spyro will encounter some soldier which used to b in Malefors army and will then rise up and try to wreck havoc

RedDragonX · Dec 29, 2008 11:13 PM

In reference to Ratchet: Well the more you look at markets and the more that you work in general the more you will understand about such concepts. You are correct with what you are saying in that Spyro himself didn't have much limitations..and if they had the desire to proceed with him they would have done so....but they realized that the Spyro series...as much as it had brought them...was not going to go anywhere after they threw all they had into YotD...and then hit a wall on their limitations with the character. You really have to sit back and look at the whole picture...which is very large...but businesses will cut something of it's not going to do them any good...and that's what they did with Spyro.

Could they have proceeded with it? Sure they could have...but they made a decision that it wasn't going to help them in the future...and that's something that they live with. Ratchet and Clank made up for all of this...and nobody is buddy buddy in the competative world of gaming. When Naughty Dog for example....started to create the Jak and Dexter games....Insomniac...as a close competiter in terms of Spyro and Crash...decided to follow their example and match them step for step by almost creating the exact same thing.

It's everywhere and it all involves the market. You want something to appear more appealing to the average customer...you do it in every industry. If you have never worked with such things you wont really see that kind of market change...but if you have it is very very obvious. Money runs everything in business..the passion behind it is a bonus if their is any.

But yeah niether of us will ever convince the other.

In reference to Spyro Master: Yes you are right we have gone way off topic...but your theory is certainly possible...but I really feel that they will stray away from anything that involves Malefor for a little while. We just got finished with three games of him....they need something that is new and fresh.

Stormy · Dec 30, 2008 1:08 AM

XRedDragonX, I believe you're mistaking Insomniac's abandonment of Spyro with the concept of market. Insomniac may have decided that there was nothing more to do with Spyro, but that doesn't mean there is no market for games like original Spyro anymore. One good game I can think of off the top of my head that's kind of like it is Super Mario Sunshine. Yes, it's Nintendo, but it was a fun adventure game with collectibles, short-ish levels, and relatively easy-to-defeat enemies. And *gasp* no combat or shooting! Yet I understand it sold fairly well, and while I can't think of any at the moment, I'm sure games like that still exist and do just as well, if not better, than the TLoS series.

Anyway, bottom line: Insomniac giving up Spyro is not the same as there being no market. That was simply their opinion, that they can't/didn't want to do anything more with the character.

ratchet · Dec 30, 2008 1:44 AM

XRedDragonX wrote:

In reference to Ratchet: Well the more you look at markets and the more that you work in general the more you will understand about such concepts. You are correct with what you are saying in that Spyro himself didn't have much limitations..and if they had the desire to proceed with him they would have done so....but they realized that the Spyro series...as much as it had brought them...was not going to go anywhere after they threw all they had into YotD...and then hit a wall on their limitations with the character. You really have to sit back and look at the whole picture...which is very large...but businesses will cut something of it's not going to do them any good...and that's what they did with Spyro.
Could they have proceeded with it? Sure they could have...but they made a decision that it wasn't going to help them in the future...and that's something that they live with. Ratchet and Clank made up for all of this...and nobody is buddy buddy in the competative world of gaming. When Naughty Dog for example....started to create the Jak and Dexter games....Insomniac...as a close competiter in terms of Spyro and Crash...decided to follow their example and match them step for step by almost creating the exact same thing.
.

I agree, It was a better Idea for them to Go with Ratchet and Clank, but again, Not because of the market, but because what they could do with the character.

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