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#26 Jun 20, 2014 10:33 PM

Sear/Burst
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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

I reeaaally don't like that multiple-layer enemies idea. Spyro's simpler then that. It could be confusing to a lot of people, no matter how you indicate that the enemy is on another layer.

Out of solid or non-solid, I vote non-solid for regular enemies, and solid for large enemies.

As for bosses, I think that each world should have a mini-boss. Like regular enemies, but extremely large, non-moving, with the exit portal out of the screen behind him/her/it, making for an interesting way to force you to beat the mini-boss first. Then the final boss should be integrated into the world.

Has anyone played Ben 10 Protector of Earth for the PS2? I used to play it. Each level would have a boss that moved freely like a normal enemy, but then there would be the final boss for the group of levels that could only be in that level, due to elements in that level. Vilgax (had to google to remember his name) is not an example I'd like for this. The giant robot suit thing powered by a crystal at the bridge, that's a good example. 

Another good idea of mine is to have the sizes of the enemies tell how strong they are. Simple, common, but a nice feature.


I'm Sear & Burst the twins. Sear, red dragon blue snout & wing flaps. Burst, blue dragon red snout & wing flaps.
I'm leaving for now. I'm *bleep*ed off at Stormy. I need my time anyway, and I'm getting no enjoyment out of this forum, which is what a forum like this was partly made for. For people to be happy. I am not happy.

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#27 Jun 21, 2014 1:13 AM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

I just want a chance to chase a thief in one level. *na-na-na-na-na*


Yeah of course I agree with all that Burst says I was singing to same tune. Though roaming minibosses is new. Could be fun, makes me think of that one big gnorc in dark hollow in the pit.

However I am open to seeing what Sheeps lane thing can do, it may be that it works better in practice. Up to him really. To invest in a quick demo or not, to show it off to us.  I'd hate to miss out on some revolutionary thing, simply because I didn't understand it. That said I think I do understand it, so if its what is seems I'd prefer single lane, and strict 2D rather than suto 2.5D.

polygonconcept2.png

polygonconcept3.png

Both look pretty good though. And I can see how dodging between lanes from projectiles could be a good challenge, if we went that route.

I prefer strict 2D however, for simplicity. I think we can make just as good a game, with less workload.

Yoshi's Island is strictly 2D, but is still gorgeous.

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600full-super-mario-world-2%3A-yoshi's-island-screenshot.jpg

Last edited by GameBoyBlue (Jun 21, 2014 2:39 AM)

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#28 Jun 21, 2014 8:03 AM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

GameBoyBlue wrote:

Edit Edit: Are those... bunny gnorcs? With a carrot strapped on thier head??

Yes! (No, actually, they have multi-colored feathers invisibly strapped to their heads.)


Yeah, the  dual-layer concept was just a slightly elaborate idea, and not my definite preference in the matter.

I think I like GameBoyBlue's idea better, making them all unsolid, but make their attacks(or pushes) hinder Spyro's movement. This would also work better in cases where Spyro jumps up through an unsolid platform, into an enemy.

I'm almost done with some simple audio support, a resource(sprites and sounds at the moment) loading system&screen when starting the game, and some small changes to the sprite loading function to work with the resource loading system.

I've temporarily lost my broadband internet due to a nearby lightning strike, however, so I don't know when I'll be able to share it or anything else hmm

Last edited by Sheep (Jun 21, 2014 8:14 AM)

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#29 Jun 21, 2014 8:49 AM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

GameBoyBlue wrote:

I just want a chance to chase a thief in one level. *na-na-na-na-na*


Yeah of course I agree with all that Burst says I was singing to same tune. Though roaming minibosses is new. Could be fun, makes me think of that one big gnorc in dark hollow in the pit.

However I am open to seeing what Sheeps lane thing can do, it may be that it works better in practice. Up to him really. To invest in a quick demo or not, to show it off to us.  I'd hate to miss out on some revolutionary thing, simply because I didn't understand it. That said I think I do understand it, so if its what is seems I'd prefer single lane, and strict 2D rather than suto 2.5D.

Both look pretty good though. And I can see how dodging between lanes from projectiles could be a good challenge, if we went that route.

I prefer strict 2D however, for simplicity. I think we can make just as good a game, with less workload.

Yoshi's Island is strictly 2D, but is still gorgeous.

While Yoshi's Island is 2D, and it looks great, that's simply because of it's style that fits its universe. If Yoshi's Island didn't have the crayon-book style, it would've just looked like Super Mario World, which only really looked good because of it's vibrant colors. Some of the sprites in that game were pretty bad. Like Bowser's. It can't be that much harder to make the game 2D on a 3D plane, like Sheep illustrated; it's just a matter of making the ground hitbox in the middle of the top foreground plane.


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#30 Jun 21, 2014 6:21 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

The extra work is not just about the level. If you make the ground 2.5D(at an angle) then the characters need to seem slightly unsymmetrical aswell.

Just about as beautiful as YI, is Donkey Kong Country, which does use 2.5D, and also illustrates my point with the characters.

Donkey_Kong_Country-screen-344x300.jpg

Which isn't devastating or anything in any way, though I prefer the platforming in YI as a player, and its a really solid and tight look in that game. You really know when your feet are going to land on the ground. I just feel there is more advantage in 2D. Even if both do have some perks unique to them. Perhaps we can bring this to a vote today in 2 hours from this post in Spyro Chat? I think its mostly up to the artists, programmers, and level designers to make the call, as they are the ones most effected by it.


Another thing I feel we should talk about is the levels. If we really have only 3 levels and 1 overworld, that means only 1 theme for all 3. That actually might be good to begin with as its just one theme and we can reuse assets. I vote for peace keeper assets(canyon desert) if we only have 1 theme.

The other option would be to have a different theme in each level, and have levels connect in a different way than seen in a console Spyro game.


Speaking of which I totally call dibs on masterscorp's level designer position(to go along with writer), if he is gone.

Last edited by GameBoyBlue (Jun 21, 2014 7:51 PM)

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#31 Jun 21, 2014 6:43 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

Why do we need to do it in Spyrochat? Can't we vote right here? Not everyone can be at the same places at the same times, that's what's nice about a forum.


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#32 Jun 21, 2014 6:58 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

I'm fine with an in forum vote. If a lot can show up in chat it is nice, so all votes are heard at once, rather than trickle in in a forum. It only works if a lot show up though. Thats what we did last time with the vote topdown vs sidescroller, we had a vote in chat and finished it in forum.

So I'll be in SpyroChat in 1 hour, for those that want to discuss it and vote there.

Last edited by GameBoyBlue (Jun 21, 2014 7:15 PM)

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#33 Jun 21, 2014 7:18 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

Like I've been saying, there's nothing we need to meet about right now, especially not frequently. We're doing fine figuring stuff out on the forum. Since we're all in different time zones, it's not likely that everyone will be able to make it at any given time, anyway.

If you guys really want to meet about stuff, that's fine, but a lot of these things don't need to be a forum-wide vote and don't require a live discussion. We should leave most of the decision-making to the people who are going to be doing the work in the area that each decision involves.


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#34 Jun 21, 2014 7:19 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

I actually prefer voting on a forum too, if I'm honest. If everyone can meet online at the same time to answer a question in chat (or even discuss the game in general), what's stopping us from answering the exact same question at the exact same time here? We could always just use the 'Please vote before this time' if we're in a hurry. smile

I'll still try to be in the chat anyway, but be warned - Sometimes my internet cuts out for no reason tongue


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#35 Jun 21, 2014 7:46 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

GameBoyBlue wrote:

The extra work is not just about the level. If you make the ground 2.5D(at an angle) then the characters need to seem slightly unsymmetrical aswell.

I don't agree that they aswell need to be slightly asymmetrical, though it looks slightly better if they are. How much they need it really depends on the "angle" of the 2.5D effect and the thickness of the flat ground. If it's thin enough, completely 2d characters and objects would pass.

Anyway, depending on how we do Spyro's collision with polygons/lines, if we go that route, it might be useful as a way to partially hide how parts of Spyro's sprite goes into the terrain, while his collision shape doesn't.
For example if he's a circle(which is convenient for a number of reasons, like naturally sliding off edges and it doesn't need to rotate with Spyro):
polyproblem.png

GameBoyBlue wrote:

Another thing I feel we should talk about is the levels. If we really have only 3 levels and 1 overworld, that means only 1 theme for all 3. That actually might be good to begin with as its just one theme and we can reuse assets. I vote for peace keeper assets(canyon desert) if we only have 1 theme.

The other option would be to have a different theme in each level, and have levels connect in a different way than seen in a console Spyro game.

I don't see why we would have to use only one theme for all three levels, even if they're in the same homeworld like usual, and even if that was how they did it in the Dragon Kingdom in Spyro 1. We could just do it like in Spyro 2 or 3.


Edit:
About voting on 2.5D effect, I think it's too early to vote about it before we even have the gameplay we're going to have, and have not even decided( as far as I know) whether we do polygon or grid based terrain.

Last edited by Sheep (Jun 21, 2014 7:53 PM)

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#36 Jun 21, 2014 7:57 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

suppose you can begin voting on 2D or 2.5D here.

My vote is 2D, for the reasons explained in my post before last.

GameBoyBlue: 2D

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#37 Jun 21, 2014 8:24 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

Good evening,

After a discussion in the IRC channel; I may be able to help for code reviewing.

Experience :
- Map making and scripting for id Tech III (Wolfenstein ET).
- Map making in other engines (UE 2.5, Source).
- Bot scripting for WolfET.
- A 3 month intership in software development.

I'm about to finish my college course of 2 years with a diploma, then going for engineering school.

I'd be interested in testing, since I like to glitch things and report tongue

I see you've already some visuals with optimization concepts for collisions, that's pretty nice smile

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#38 Jun 21, 2014 8:28 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

Welcome Mateos.

Would it be possible to have Spyro inside the circle?

Also perhaps his tail could be drawn small, or upright.

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#39 Jun 21, 2014 9:24 PM

Sear/Burst
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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

I think a mix of small and upright. Also, I vote 2D as well.

GameBoyBlue: 2D
SearBurst: 2D
2D total: 2
2.5D total: 0
People who think this is a bad form of keeping track: 1 (SearBurst, )


I'm Sear & Burst the twins. Sear, red dragon blue snout & wing flaps. Burst, blue dragon red snout & wing flaps.
I'm leaving for now. I'm *bleep*ed off at Stormy. I need my time anyway, and I'm getting no enjoyment out of this forum, which is what a forum like this was partly made for. For people to be happy. I am not happy.

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#40 Jun 21, 2014 9:39 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

I'm kind of uncomfortable with everyone getting a "vote" in an area in which they're not directly involved, especially if they aren't going to be doing any of the work. It seems a little unfair, and I don't want any teams getting stressed out by being forced by popular vote to do something they don't want to do.

Let me be clear: this is meant to be a fun event for people to sign up for different areas of game development and get experience. It's not a commercial game intended to please everyone on the forum (although if it did, that would be a bonus). Please refrain from voting on something if you don't have a job in this project. If you want a say in the decision-making process, sign up to help out!

Opinions here and there are fine, but if we ever do a direct vote like this, I'm not counting your vote unless you're doing some of the work.

Last edited by Stormy (Jun 21, 2014 9:45 PM)


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#41 Jun 21, 2014 9:44 PM

Sheep
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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

GameBoyBlue wrote:

Would it be possible to have Spyro inside the circle?

This would be situational... In different frames of different animations, he will cover very different areas. If we made his largest sprite completely contained within the circle, the circle would be way too big for other, more compact sprites. The opposite problem occurs if we adapt the circle to the smallest sprite.
It'll have to be a compromise between what looks acceptable and what gives appropriate collisions in general. For example, you wouldn't expect him to(in a video game) collide when only his horns, his tail or the tip of his wings touches the terrain.
Even in the PSOne games, Spyro's collision shape is a sphere, and we would see his tail and head go into walls(which they actually do) if it wasn't for the depth offset objects have in those games to counter the limits of depth sorted triangles compared to the depth buffer of N64 and all newer consoles. In later games, I believe they also used a sphere, but slightly bigger compared to the actual model, which results in the character hovering a short distance over the ground(but this is less noticeable because it's 3D and you rarely look from angles where it's very obvious. In 2D on the other hand, it would constantly be seen from the most obvious angle).


A few measures could be taken to counter the issue(some of them or all):
-Avoid having connected floor lines forming too narrow angles(like those in the illustration in my last post).
-Have the collision shape in mind when making the sprites
-Make it very slightly 2.5D so that Spyro always, when on the ground, overlaps with the terrain a little bit, making the issue, when it occurs, less conflicting with the how the game is presented.
-(It might be possible to split his sprite in two between his pair of legs and have the two parts adapt differently to the terrain, though it would make the spriting more difficult.)

Last edited by Sheep (Jun 21, 2014 9:45 PM)

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#42 Jun 21, 2014 10:12 PM

GameBoyBlue
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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

Stormy wrote:

I'm kind of uncomfortable with everyone getting a "vote" in an area in which they're not directly involved, especially if they aren't going to be doing any of the work. It seems a little unfair, and I don't want any teams getting stressed out by being forced by popular vote to do something they don't want to do.

Let me be clear: this is meant to be a fun event for people to sign up for different areas of game development and get experience. It's not a commercial game intended to please everyone on the forum (although if it did, that would be a bonus). Please refrain from voting on something if you don't have a job in this project. If you want a say in the decision-making process, sign up to help out!

Opinions here and there are fine, but if we ever do a direct vote like this, I'm not counting your vote unless you're doing some of the work.

GameBoyBlue wrote:

I think its mostly up to the artists, programmers, and level designers to make the call, as they are the ones most effected by it.

I agree but I also feel this is an issue that touches all areas.

Programming: where to put collisions, on the top of surfaces or in a middle point
Level design & Art: arranging levels so they work for the chosen style
Writing & Music: choosing a story and music that matches the level style

Last edited by GameBoyBlue (Jun 21, 2014 10:16 PM)

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#43 Jun 21, 2014 10:14 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

Agreed. I was directing that at Sear/Burst or anyone else who might want to vote but hasn't signed up to do anything.


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#44 Jun 21, 2014 10:17 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

Seers isn't on the team? He's been so active.tumblr_inline_mh8xmhlbOi1qz4rgp.gif

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#45 Jun 21, 2014 10:19 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

Nope, he's not, never signed up. Just for future reference, the full list is here in the first post of the old thread. smile


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#46 Jun 21, 2014 10:23 PM

GameBoyBlue
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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

If that's still open you should sign up Burst.


Are you leaning more towards 2.5 Sheep? Thanks for the lesson in collision btw, interesting stuff. I have experience with GameMaker which taught me a lot, but collision, with buildings especially, was... tricky. I'd usually make top down games where buildings, obstacles, and characters were the only collision. Perhaps the difficulty was because I didn't use a sphere, but a square.

Last edited by GameBoyBlue (Jun 21, 2014 10:38 PM)

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#47 Jun 21, 2014 10:34 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

Signups are now over for everything except testing. It was his responsibility to do that if he wanted to back when they were open.


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#48 Jun 21, 2014 10:37 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

The ship set sail. But it appears we have a stow away.

I think the positions were created to be sure that our bases were covered. They are, and then some. We have multi-talented members on this team,people who can do things in different places.

I can see the 'titles' as useful, as it shows who was most eager to nab a position, though I think we also need to acknowledge that diverse set of talents.
I don't know what I'm suggesting exactly Stormy, just that in general, we allow people with strong opinions, supported by good points, to have some say so, as long as they are willing to do some work, of course.

I got your PM. Perhaps stow aways will be able to do some work after all.

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Last edited by GameBoyBlue (Jun 21, 2014 10:54 PM)

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#49 Jun 21, 2014 11:03 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

I suppose it could work that way. But if I'm being honest, I think each team is more than capable of working just within those teams, and joining our efforts in the end. That way,  with everyone focused solely on their own parts, we can probably get more work done as opposed to everyone trying to focus on one part. Not saying we shouldn't interact - Just that most of the time we should probably stick to our own areas (kinda like you would with the actual profession).

In the meantime, I'll be posting an updated storyline soon.


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#50 Jun 21, 2014 11:58 PM

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Re: Spyroforum Fan Game - Week of June 16th

GameBoyBlue wrote:

I think the positions were created to be sure that our bases were covered. They are, and then some. We have multi-talented members on this team,people who can do things in different places.

I can see the 'titles' as useful, as it shows who was most eager to nab a position, though I think we also need to acknowledge that diverse set of talents.
I don't know what I'm suggesting exactly Stormy, just that in general, we allow people with strong opinions, supported by good points, to have some say so, as long as they are willing to do some work, of course.

The key phrase here is "willing to do some work," which, after talking to Sear/Burst on Spyrochat, seems to not be something he's interested in doing. This is also evidenced by the fact that, like I said, he never signed up to do anything, and I'm not about to put people in positions to do work that they aren't willing to do. And the consequence for choosing not to do any work is that you don't get a say, no matter how strong your opinions may be.

Basically, if you didn't sign up, this event is not about you, and that was your decision. Now that we've started, the positions are set and are not up for debate. They are also not just suggestions as you seem to be describing here. I made them with the clear intention of those who signed up for them doing the exact work they signed up for, like RadSpyro describes:

RadSpyro wrote:

I suppose it could work that way. But if I'm being honest, I think each team is more than capable of working just within those teams, and joining our efforts in the end. That way,  with everyone focused solely on their own parts, we can probably get more work done as opposed to everyone trying to focus on one part. Not saying we shouldn't interact - Just that most of the time we should probably stick to our own areas (kinda like you would with the actual profession).

This is exactly right; that was the whole point of having signups and teams in the first place. Not everyone has to know about every single aspect of the project; it's much better and more organized if everyone sticks to one or two specialized areas. I tried to make this project as much like it actually would be in the game development industry from what little I know about it.


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