Religion

Game_Girl_2007 · Aug 26, 2008 10:00 PM

I'm Wiccan/Pagan. XD

Fletch_Talon · Aug 27, 2008 12:10 AM

Atresac wrote:

Fletch_Talon wrote:
Atresac wrote:
technically you are atheist. atheism just means you don't believe in any gods.
weeeeell
id argue that atheism requires disbelief in any supernatural forces, of which an afterlife would be one
a religion (and therfore theism) doesnt require belief in a god, it may be a non sentient energy force (like the force in star wars) or in this case the belief in a supernatural place that we go to when we die
id say taco godess is a theist, she just doesnt subscribe to an organised religion, she has her own beliefs based on her own mind.
But atheism is, by definition, the lack of a belief in a god or other deities. You can be an atheist and still hold philosophical views and even have an idea of an afterlife. Just look at Buddhism.
Taco Godess stated that she does not believe in god, which is exactly what theism necessitates.

ok, you are aware that Buddhism is a religion... right?
at the very least it is classified as such
some definitions add "rejection of theism" to the "not believing in god" and to me theism does not have to involve a god as such

Kamineko · Aug 27, 2008 12:34 AM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

Atresac wrote:
Fletch_Talon wrote:
weeeeell
id argue that atheism requires disbelief in any supernatural forces, of which an afterlife would be one
a religion (and therfore theism) doesnt require belief in a god, it may be a non sentient energy force (like the force in star wars) or in this case the belief in a supernatural place that we go to when we die
id say taco godess is a theist, she just doesnt subscribe to an organised religion, she has her own beliefs based on her own mind.
But atheism is, by definition, the lack of a belief in a god or other deities. You can be an atheist and still hold philosophical views and even have an idea of an afterlife. Just look at Buddhism.
Taco Godess stated that she does not believe in god, which is exactly what theism necessitates.
ok, you are aware that Buddhism is a religion... right?
at the very least it is classified as such
some definitions add "rejection of theism" to the "not believing in god" and to me theism does not have to involve a god as such

I know... I was using it as an example of a religion that isn't a theistic one.

"Theism is the belief in the existence of one or more divinities or deities."

Rejecting of theism and not believing in a god are the same thing. Atheist pretty much literally means "not a theist". Buddhism is just an example of a religion that is not theistic.

Taco Godess · Aug 27, 2008 12:37 AM

... I never thought I'd see an argument about my beliefs, especially one I'm not involved in. lol

Kamineko · Aug 27, 2008 1:16 AM

It's pretty much just about what the actual definition of an atheist is. You can believe in an afterlife and still be an atheist is all I'm saying.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 27, 2008 1:22 AM

Atresac wrote:

I know... I was using it as an example of a religion that isn't a theistic one.
"Theism is the belief in the existence of one or more divinities or deities."
Rejecting of theism and not believing in a god are the same thing. Atheist pretty much literally means "not a theist". Buddhism is just an example of a religion that is not theistic.

ah fair enough i guess, i always assumed theism referred to religion, not deities specifically

i still disagree with the definition, despite it being official and all, atheism is the belief primarily attributed to people who dont believe in any supernatural force and rather use science to explain the world around us

i guess when the word was first used there would have been no such thing as a religion that believes in an afterlife but no god, to be honest the concept confuses me, an afterlife would imply some place beyond where we are now and it would almost certainly have to have been created by or governed by some mystical force or deity

unless youre talking about ghosts or reincarnation, thats a whole different kettle of fish

Kamineko · Aug 27, 2008 2:07 AM

Well I guess it call comes down to official definition vs. common usage.

Oh well.

Ailith · Aug 27, 2008 2:11 AM

This is sorta a weird conversation xD

Myself I am a Christian just to let you all know

Lanara · Aug 27, 2008 6:10 AM

Christianity is just a category yes? Defining that the person believes in Jesus as well as god, then categorizes into Catholicism. Well, I guess I'm Catholic then.

Well, from what Iv herd, atheism is the point of rejecting gods and religion in every way, and agnosticism is being unsure about religion, and weather not witch one is correct. hmm Iv seen people use the word 'atheism' as lightly as 'agnosticism'.

raven · Aug 27, 2008 6:40 AM

DanteAndVergil wrote:

a pagan is someone that believes in the spirit realm there is only one god to a pagan and that is gaia

By Gaia, do you mean the Greek goddess of the Earth, or the ecological theory that the Earth is a single living organism?

Paranoia · Aug 27, 2008 11:31 AM

I am a Catholic Christian. I believe in Jesus, God, and the afterlife. I have given serious thought on my religion in the past couple of years, and I feel that that is what I truly believe in.

ontels · Aug 27, 2008 1:07 PM

if any of the religions give me undiniable proof of there beliefs Ill go with that intill that Im content with non serious catholic

Game_Girl_2007 · Aug 27, 2008 1:27 PM

raven wrote:

DanteAndVergil wrote:
a pagan is someone that believes in the spirit realm there is only one god to a pagan and that is gaia
By Gaia, do you mean the Greek goddess of the Earth, or the ecological theory that the Earth is a single living organism?

Actually. Pagans (or Wiccans) believe in several Gods and Goddesses. It's an Earth based religion that focuses on the powers of nature. Pagans/Wiccans are commonly also known as Witches, as we practise the art of witchcraft. Our one rule is that all of our work should not harm any living creature.

We also have great respect for all forms of life. That being both humans AND animals. (Even plant life!)

ratchet · Aug 28, 2008 10:02 AM

good god man just admit you cant leave and be done with it lol >_>

I'm only posting in Topics very rarely, and not in any spyro topics....
eh

Stormy · Aug 28, 2008 1:47 PM

[sub]I'm a Catholic Christian also.[/sub]

narrae wrote:

I'm a Christian, but there are many things about my religion that upset me. ._.
I hate how a lot of Christians freak out over retarded things like, "Oh, hey, that movie is based on a book that was made by someone who is antichristianity! We can't watch it, we must flame~"
I also find it difficult to remain faithful when we're always turning around and shunning people who think differently while we say we're being open-minded. u_u

[sub]Yes, like The Golden Compass. Can't we just watch/read and just decide not to believe in it? Seriously.

In addition to that: I really dislike the whole idea of hell. It disturbs me when people go around telling people, "you're going to be *bleep* to hell." Doesn't it at all bother them that some people might have to endure eternal suffering? >_>[/sub]

Fletch_Talon · Aug 28, 2008 2:16 PM

i liked the themes in golden compass, and to be honest i think your missing out if you dont look deeper into them, same with the chronicles of narnia

its funny though, whether it was written by an atheist or not, doesnt really promote atheism, its really more about the fact that organised christian religions are based around giving up your freedom to think for yourself, and therefore your free will

and if you dont agree with that all i mean is the fact that to be part of an organised religion, lets say you want to be Catholic, then you have to believe what they tell you to, you have to act in a way that you are told to
eg. if you are catholic then its you arent allowed to use contraceptives or have an abortion under any circumstances

*HERE BE SPOILERS*
in the books, the figure who is said to be "God" is not in fact the true creator of life, he is actually the first angel and he let power get to his head

the figure who is "Satan" or the serpent is actually someone who encourages freedom of mind and body in:

Eve who isnt weak and giving into evil temptations, but is actually just doing what feels right and natural
*SPOILERS BE GONE NOW*

thats how i interpreted it anyway

Stormy · Aug 28, 2008 2:35 PM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

i liked the themes in golden compass, and to be honest i think your missing out if you dont look deeper into them, same with the chronicles of narnia

[sub]I understand the theme of the series, I just happen to, to a certain extent, disagree. But that doesn't mean I can't still enjoy the books.

I agree with your idea about religion requiring you to give up some freedom, but mostly the "freedoms" could be considered morally incorrect either way, religious or not. Also, it's acceptable for Christians because we believe we will be rewarded after life, and that there are greater things to believe in than temporary inconvenience.

I do not mean to start a debate with this. It's my opinion, so please don't bash me for it, thank you. I apologize in advance to anyone I may have offended; if you are, it was completely unintentional.[/sub]

Fletch_Talon · Aug 29, 2008 2:56 AM

obviously certain religious beliefs are pretty much universal, you shouldnt kill people

however it should not be a religious decision, people need to realise "i shouldnt kill someone" not because god doesnt want them to, but because the other person doesnt want them to, the one lesson in the bible (at least i think its from the bible) is Do un to others as you would have others do un to you

now there are no rules without exception, obviously if someone is punching you, you dont just stand there and not fight back, but overall that rule is the most logical thing in the world, you wouldnt like being stolen from, so dont steal, you wouldnt like someone running of with your wife, so dont run off with someone elses

anyway back to the point, religion takes away the freedom to think differently to the church's belief, so what happens if youre catholic and realise youre homosexual, youre forced to either leave your religion and likely be scorned by your family, or you can pretend nothings wrong because hey, you cant be gay because being gay is wrong

im gonna keep using catholic beliefs cuz they are probably the most disagreeable to me

being a catholic means you cant decide for yourself whether or not wearing protection during sex is a good idea (and funnily enough since it prevents STDs and unplanned pregnancy id say its a pretty good idea) and doesnt let you decide for yourself whether you should kill the baby in your uterus likely before it has any notion of actually being alive or if you should bring it into the world and make its life miserable in an orphanage or whatever or if you should keep it and let it ruin all the plans you had for your life (and potentially giving it a horrible life due to being incapable of looking after it etc.)

the way i see it is, we've been given free will and choice, now assumedly that was given to us by god, (unless it was given to us when we ate the forbidden fruit, in which case, thank you Eve and thank you Serpent) to not use the gift god gave us is kinda insulting

and worst of all, i could almost overlook the church's removing the free will of people who willingly become part of that religion (and the children who are brought up to believe it too who in many cases dont have choice in the matter but thats a discussion for another time) but then religion invades our governments and other institutions, so now even if you think youre free to make your own decisions, your moral decisions are being made by the governement

contraception and abortion do not hurt you, there are only 2 possibly 3 people it affects, mum, baby, dad, now as ive said, the baby is unlikely to have even the potential to think on any level, its simply there it doesnt know anything, the only reason church's look down on abortion is because they believe its destroying the soul, or that the baby has to be babtised or else it will go to limbo and not heaven

well guess what, if god wants to send dead babies/foetuses/people to somewhere bad because they havnt been dunked in liquid and blessed by someone, then god is an *bleep*

and no stormy i am not bashing you, i am debating your beliefs, you obviously dont have to respond but the choice is there, and for the record, the whole "we'll be rewarded in the afterlife" thing is stupid, god put us here first, i would assume he'd want us to make the most of what we have while we're here, to treat life like a waiting room for heaven is ridiculous, thats like saying just be good during school and youll be an adult soon, just be a good adult and youll be able to retire soon.

Stormy · Aug 29, 2008 3:04 PM

Fletch_Talon wrote:

obviously certain religious beliefs are pretty much universal, you shouldnt kill people
however it should not be a religious decision, people need to realise "i shouldnt kill someone" not because god doesnt want them to, but because the other person doesnt want them to, the one lesson in the bible (at least i think its from the bible) is Do un to others as you would have others do un to you

[sub]Yes, that's what I'm saying I agree with. [/sub]

anyway back to the point, religion takes away the freedom to think differently to the church's belief, so what happens if youre catholic and realise youre homosexual, youre forced to either leave your religion and likely be scorned by your family, or you can pretend nothings wrong because hey, you cant be gay because being gay is wrong

[sub]Now that is a common misconception. I've seen this belief on other websites before, and I've quite lost track of how many times I've had to explain.

OK, the church has no problem with you being gay. None whatsoever. What it doesn't believe in is gay relationships. No one is going to scorn you for being gay; actually, anyone who follows the Bible shouldn't scorn anyone at all, gay relationship or not.

Got it? =P[/sub]

being a catholic means you cant decide for yourself whether or not wearing protection during sex is a good idea (and funnily enough since it prevents STDs and unplanned pregnancy id say its a pretty good idea) and doesnt let you decide for yourself whether you should kill the baby in your uterus likely before it has any notion of actually being alive or if you should bring it into the world and make its life miserable in an orphanage or whatever or if you should keep it and let it ruin all the plans you had for your life (and potentially giving it a horrible life due to being incapable of looking after it etc.)

contraception and abortion do not hurt you, there are only 2 possibly 3 people it affects, mum, baby, dad, now as ive said, the baby is unlikely to have even the potential to think on any level, its simply there it doesnt know anything, the only reason church's look down on abortion is because they believe its destroying the soul, or that the baby has to be babtised or else it will go to limbo and not heaven
well guess what, if god wants to send dead babies/foetuses/people to somewhere bad because they havnt been dunked in liquid and blessed by someone, then god is an *Bleep*

[sub]There's a simple thing called... not having sex if you don't want to be pregnant. =P

Anyway, the reason for those rules is because we believe sexuality is sacred and a gift from God used to create new life and intimacy between a husband and a wife. If it is God's will that I become pregnant, I would believe that I should keep the baby and give it a chance at life. As for the contraception thing, I was confused about that, but apparently the reason for it is because God wants us to practice self-control/patience/etc to wait to have sex at a more appropriate time.

I'm not really sure about the limbo thing, but I know it's not somewhere bad. "Limbo" refers to a place that is like Heaven, but without the actual presence of God.

I would agree with you that it is unfair that they'd have to be sent there, but it doesn't sound like it's so bad. There are still many things about my religion that I don't fully understand.... [/sub]

and no stormy i am not bashing you, i am debating your beliefs, you obviously dont have to respond but the choice is there, and for the record, the whole "we'll be rewarded in the afterlife" thing is stupid, god put us here first, i would assume he'd want us to make the most of what we have while we're here, to treat life like a waiting room for heaven is ridiculous, thats like saying just be good during school and youll be an adult soon, just be a good adult and youll be able to retire soon.

[sub]It's "stupid"? That sure sounds like bashing to me. T__T

And what's wrong with that? I don't think there's anything wrong with looking toward the future.

I suppose I'd also better mention that I'm NOT shoving my religion down anyone's throat, as some people seem to think when I bring it up. I'm only explaining what I believe; I acknowledge that it's your choice whether to believe it or not. [/sub]

A Guy · Aug 29, 2008 3:20 PM

I am a Christian and I'm still free, as far as I can tell.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 30, 2008 12:16 AM

A Guy wrote:

I am a Christian and I'm still free, as far as I can tell.

this is the thing though, there is religion and there is organised religion

Christianity is the belief in God and his son Christ

Catholic(i never now if i can add ism to the end of that)
is Christianity with a set of specific beliefs

now whilst im agnostic, i lean more towards the idea that there is a god/force/energy or something supernatural which has some effect on our lives (at least for the moment)

but at the same time i want my beliefs to be my own, i dislike organised religions because they encourage everyone to think and believe the same things, youre not allowed to disagree with what the church says is right

now i know youre probably thinking "well in that case you can leave the church" but the problem is that the human race is made up of a lot of people, many of them without the willpower to stand up to an entire community, especially when theyve often grown up in said community, and when their family is part of the community

im sure some families are very accepting and understanding and all that but i had a friend, granted she was a jehova's witness, a religion well known for being very strict in regards to their beliefs (and for annoying people in their homes)

anyway, this friend, female, liked a guy at school, but he wasnt jehova's witness, BIG NONO, long story short they did end up dating for a while with mums permission got really close etc. broke her heart and she went into isolation and now i guess shes a religious freak cuz last i talked to her she gave me a multi-hour lecture on why im not getting into heaven (i consider myself a good debater but i seriously couldnt get a word in, thats msn for you)

anyway the point of this before i went of track was to let you know that she couldnt choose her own religion because if she did she would be "excommunicated"

thats a nice way of saying YOURE OUT OF THE FAMILY

now where was i... >_>

Religion is good in a way, it teaches morals, but it teaches them for the wrong reason

instead of dont kill because that person has a long life ahead of him and taking that away would hurt him and the people that love him

religion teaches, dont kill or god will send you to hell
or, dont kill because god gave that person life and youre not allowed to take it

you might think it all results in the person not killing anybody, and youre probably right to an extent, but its the difference between, slapping a kid and not telling them what they did wrong or punishing them and lecturing them on what it is that was wrong about what they did

finally i like this topic, even if nobody wants to argue with me i get to voice opinions and stuff

A Guy · Aug 30, 2008 12:19 AM

Then it's the family's fault for not allowing them to have different opinions. If I decided to become an atheist my parents would not stop me.

Anyways, before this becomes a flame war, I will leave.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 30, 2008 12:24 AM

A Guy wrote:

Then it's the family's fault for not allowing them to have different opinions. If I decided to become an atheist my parents would not stop me.
Anyways, before this becomes a flame war, I will leave.

no it is the religions fault because the religion promotes (and enforces) the belief that non-believers must be excommunicated

and even when the religion doesnt specifically state it in its rules (or doctrines or whatever) its usally implied anyway, a family is going to want their children to stay within the religion, and thus will use their love as a bargaining chip

or in other cases they just dont want anything to do with "heathens" etc.

Stormy · Aug 30, 2008 12:39 AM

no it is the religions fault because the religion promotes (and enforces) the belief that non-believers must be excommunicated

Absolutely untrue. My family is not like that at all. They want me to be Christian, sure, but they'd never, ever excommunicate me if I chose another way.

Fletch_Talon · Aug 30, 2008 12:52 AM

Stormy wrote:

no it is the religions fault because the religion promotes (and enforces) the belief that non-believers must be excommunicated
Absolutely untrue. My family is not like that at all. They want me to be Christian, sure, but they'd never, ever excommunicate me if I chose another way.

i dont recall at any point mentioning your situation or your family, i also dont recall saying all families/religions would do that

A Guy responded to my comment about my friend being a Jehova's Witness, and part of their religion is to excommunicate people who choose another way

A Guy claimed it was the fault of my friend's family not the religion, which is not true because its the religion that sets out the rules that they all have to follow

so i advise you to read back a couple of comments before you claim that a comment is "absolutely untrue"

and for the record i guarantee you that many of the higher ups in the catholic church would likely encourage parents to "disown" their children for straying

and please stormy, please note the use of the term many, not all, i could say some, but i really believe it would be the majority rather than the minority

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