SEVERUS?

Stormy · Mar 13, 2012 11:06 PM

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Unless you're Buddhist or something I guess.

36IStillLikeSpyro36 · Mar 13, 2012 11:09 PM

it doesn't exist though. sounds don't make a language unless minds process it as a language. a sound doesn't have meaning by default.

that doesn't seem religion-specific to me, just... i really don't know a word for it; existential? realistic?

Stormy · Mar 13, 2012 11:15 PM

So it exists as a construct of the mind. I don't see how dependence on something else means it doesn't exist itself.

Buddhism isn't really a religion, but yeah. It sounds like a very Buddhist idea based on what I've been reading about lately. Buddhism is very big on everything being impermanent, merely a product of consciousness and perception, etc. I don't really like it.

36IStillLikeSpyro36 · Mar 13, 2012 11:46 PM

a lot of things in society are products of perception. for example, money has no real value. it's just a piece of whatever it's made of, that people have assigned value to.

unless, of course, you're a fan of the materials used for money.

actually, the world economy in general doesn't exist; it's just a bunch of imaginary numbers flowing through an imaginary system. nothing physically or spiritually exists proving the world economy or the impersonal worth of money beyond a little pretend game.

that's one of hundreds of thousands of reasons i avoid society, because everything is pretense in society; nothing is based in reality. just a rat race everybody's involved in.

reality is what was before society. that's how i see it.

Latias fan · Mar 13, 2012 11:50 PM

So essantially to achieve reality we basically have to throw away our humanity? *bleep* dat.

36IStillLikeSpyro36 · Mar 13, 2012 11:55 PM

no, to achieve reality we have to embrace our humanity. society in its current state is counterproductive to humanity. humanity isn't sitting around and playing video games. humanity isn't throwing numbers into an imaginary system. humanity isn't sitting on internet forums and posting YouTube Poop videos. that's not what our (*ahem*, alleged) advanced conscience was meant for.

humanity is found in art; in music, in philosophy, in a will extending past our own to help other creatures, in striving for genuine improvement of the world,

but as it stands, everyone thinks "humanity" is just about being DOMINANT OVER EVERYTHING because we're smarter, and making "technological advancements" that drive us backwards every day, but look at how shiny they are! the second paragraph is what it's all about, not our daily rat-race.

Last edited by 36IStillLikeSpyro36 (Nov 16, 2016 3:26 AM)

Latias fan · Mar 14, 2012 12:03 AM

>Humanity isn't about Sitting on Internet forums.

Aceedwin · Mar 14, 2012 1:07 AM

The *bleep* are you guys even on?

First of all, about language. Well, language can gain meaning one of two ways depending on whether you agree with Wittgenstein or Locke (ignore the implication that agreement precedes consideration of ideas). Wittgenstein says that our words gain meaning based on how they are used. Pragmaticism, essentially. And Locke thinks (my own preferred theory) that we give words meaning from the experiences we link to the words. He would, I suppose, being an empiricist.

Now about your weird pseudo-socialogical theory. I find it so interesting that with one hand you brush aside society because it's subjective, and then with the other start snatching at art and music. The hell is up with that? Do you believe in objective artisitic standards? Because you know, there's more evidence for the existence of an economy that there is for an idea of "proper music". There're skyscrapers all over the place, for one. And formulae for our random numbers, rather than critics. Formulae are more reliable than critics, and unless you enjoy shooting yourself in the foot, you won't argue there.

To me, it seems like you expect humanity to be some kind of messiah species that will lead all to enlightenment. That's not going to happen. We're little pink meatsacks who're easily intimidated by each other and large objects. We've evolved to form tribes and try to eat until we die. That's your nice little "reality", stripped of all these imaginary constructs you dislike so much.

Let's imagine, just for a second, that we lost all our strange little imaginary constructs. We wouldn't all start becoming artists and philosophers. Far from it, we'd descend into panicky, aggressive pirates. Because we need these constructs. Maybe there's an alien species that is perfectly fine with sitting on its own contemplating the most basic criticisms of language, but we're not it.

Do you think there has been a conspiracy to force us into this society, like a dog forced to eat grass? I doubt it. This is the world we deserve. This is a human society. Don't presume to know more about humanity than *bleep* near every other human to ever breathe and wave at another human.

If this seems a little harsh, bear in mind that it is 1AM, and for me, it's still early.

36IStillLikeSpyro36 · Mar 14, 2012 1:37 AM

pardon the brief response, because i really want to reply well to your thoughts, since we're finally getting in on my kind of discussion, but there's not all that much to say. in short, you think my visions are too idealistic to come true. i think they're possible. the only thing to solve that debate would be to watch the future, like making bets on a race.

but about art and music; beauty is in the nerve endings of the beholder. some people like to listen to autotuned children singing about their clothing articles and the celebrities that wear them. some people like to listen to raw, poor-quality recordings of people screaming out passionately about the miniscule problems of their lives. some people like to listen to 4,000,000 people playing various orchestral instruments until it sounds like a film soundtrack on more steroids than the earth's population. i am one of those people, by the way. the key is the expression, the thought that comes from it - not just the work itself. though of course, it needs recognition as well. there is no definition of proper music, and i never said there was, though i could assign one in my personal opinion. the economy, on the other hand, is just an idea, a mental construct of values flowing through the world. the skyscrapers don't validate the idea. equations don't validate the value.

i don't look at humanity as a species - i see humanity as a group of living beings (who happen to be biologically similar) capable of looking beyond the mundane to rise to their full potential. only, that full potential hasn't been recognized yet. i think that potential can be recognized by removing the societal constructs. but that just leads the whole thing into a circle; remember, watch the future. we'll see who's right, i suppose.

i guess this didn't turn out so short after all.

Last edited by 36IStillLikeSpyro36 (Nov 16, 2016 3:29 AM)

Hwd45 · Mar 14, 2012 5:28 PM

Tl;dr

Aceedwin · Mar 14, 2012 6:01 PM

So it comes down to potential? What humanity should be? Well, as I said, we shouldn't be some kind of messiah species. That'd be a constant denial of what we are.

No time for discussion tonight. Time for TF2.

Also, Hwd, you managed to make at tl;dr in your location. So pro.

Hwd45 · Mar 14, 2012 6:56 PM

Latias fan · Mar 14, 2012 6:56 PM

Clock-la · Mar 14, 2012 7:14 PM